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Post by superwack on Mar 4, 2021 12:05:18 GMT -6
I agree with what both christopher at jcoutu1 said. I think what I was trying to get across was that his fundamentals are so good and are something to strive for. It's true that modern tastes, loudness, etc. might not jive with his sonics in some genres but when I look at someone starting out trying to learn from a YouTube video of a guy trying to setup brauerizing ITB with 12 submixes feeding 4 master busses feeding a master fader with 10 plugins on it I think, wow, you'd be way better off trying to learn how Andy does it then 'modernize' than just going from zero to dangerous speed! I just saw a comedian say that kids are learning about making love from PornHub and that's like trying to teach someone how to walk by showing them parkour videos - I think the same thing applies to mixing. One other side-tip. I saw Nathaniel Kunkel speak at something and he said he starts every mix by picking one EQ and one compressor based on what he thinks will work for the genre and uses those for every track but IF he finds one that it doesn't work on then he starts to scroll through his options. Made sense to me.
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Post by jmoose on Mar 4, 2021 12:19:34 GMT -6
This took an interesting turn... I have some actual Andy Wallace stories but they're gonna have to wait until I have some free time.
I'll say that listening to the half inch masters for Grace in the room they were mixed in was absolutely a career highlight and way cool experience.
It's funny but he has no fear about grabbing a set of pliers and really twisting the EQ or anything else if something needs it.
May not sound like he's doing much but Andy is an aggressive mixer. No doubt!
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Post by notneeson on Mar 4, 2021 12:20:05 GMT -6
I am digging a combo of Pultec (noiseash) and the Massey VT3 for broad strokes (in concert with HPF). And finding myself bypassing tweakier EQing on my work in progress stuff as I just bought the Pultec.
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 4, 2021 12:56:48 GMT -6
This took an interesting turn... I have some actual Andy Wallace stories but they're gonna have to wait until I have some free time. I'll say that listening to the half inch masters for Grace in the room they were mixed in was absolutely a career highlight and way cool experience. It's funny but he has no fear about grabbing a set of pliers and really twisting the EQ or anything else if something needs it. May not sound like he's doing much but Andy is an aggressive mixer. No doubt! I look forward to some stories! I love Andy's work.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 4, 2021 14:53:57 GMT -6
This thread has some great comments. When mixing, I'm definitely in the camp of Choose One EQ and do everything with it. I stick with the API and that restrains my movement a bit. I find that it works well most of the time. AND... I think it was Bob Ohlson who shared this: by operating with a single EQ, it creates a type of cohesion in a mix. If nothing else, it makes the work faster... and THAT can create cohesiveness on its own. And yes, gain matching is ideal. For ITB tools, autogain should be a standard option. I generally belive that auto anything is to be avoided.
Who's mixing - you or the robot?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2021 18:48:22 GMT -6
I read once that Andy Wallace spends the first few hours of a mix just working on relative levels. I'm not sure if that's true, but it is something I have tried to adopt. That does help a mix come together. Working the faders and pan pots as the basis of the mix really helps to figure out what tonal and dynamic things need to happen. I had a Mix with the Masters membership (actually I won it on GS) and Andy Wallace is a revelation. I know everyone loves CLA and Brauer and Serban and try to emulate them, but I feel Andy’s method is something we should be inspired by - even if you are looking for a totally different sound. Like you said, he’ll spend a long time getting levels and pans and he uses as little of everything he can. Like he’ll listen to the drums, bringing up things by themselves, then in combination with other things, then wind up compressing the second rack tom by a single dB just so it’s decay matches the the others and that’s it!. He uses almost nothing but the SSL’s onboard EQ/Compression, a mix Buss compressor, 3 verbs/3 delays and a chorus.. No subgroups, no Buss processing, no parallel chains, etc. and from Jeff Buckley to Slayer to Nirvana (and yes I like his Nirvana mixes better) his stuff is amazing Andy Wallace also blends in the same samples for everyone. I’d get fired from or have to redo a ton of jobs if I did that. A lot of drummers hate that. South of Heaven sounds great though but it’s still has that filtered sound and the reverb and delays are just grainy compared to the first two records. The Nevermind kicks sound like dribbling basketballs but I don’t think he did that.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 4, 2021 19:29:55 GMT -6
I generally belive that auto anything is to be avoided.
Who's mixing - you or the robot?
I get where you're coming from but find it impractical. I've done some of those old fashioned mixes where six guys are at the board, each assigned a job to do in the mix. It was both fun and frustrating, rarely getting all those moves to jell. We often kept the best imperfect mix. That was fine and felt natural, but when I mix my own work, I do get closer to what I want. At home, I don't have twelve hands or a board to put them on, but since I choose the details of the mix and I assign some moves to the computer, I'd say I'm mixing. I will say I purposely avoided auto-tuning my vocals on my recent album. I just didn't have the heart to put out a pretend version of me. There may come a time where a small dose of pitch correction is helpful, but not yet. As a songwriter I have no issue with using any tool I have to get the sound I hear in my head, but having grown up recording my bands in the same room with only a few overdubs, that's still the way I'd like to work if I could afford to.
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Post by Quint on Mar 4, 2021 19:49:37 GMT -6
I generally belive that auto anything is to be avoided.
Who's mixing - you or the robot?
I get where you're coming from but find it impractical. I've done some of those old fashioned mixes where six guys are at the board, each assigned a job to do in the mix. It was both fun and frustrating, rarely getting all those moves to jell. We often kept the best imperfect mix. That was fine and felt natural, but when I mix my own work, I do get closer to what I want. At home, I don't have twelve hands or a board to put them on, but since I choose the details of the mix and I assign some moves to the computer, I'd say I'm mixing. I will say I purposely avoided auto-tuning my vocals on my recent album. I just didn't have the heart to put out a pretend version of me. There may come a time where a small dose of pitch correction is helpful, but not yet. As a songwriter I have no issue with using any tool I have to get the sound I hear in my head, but having grown up recording my bands in the same room with only a few overdubs, that's still the way I'd like to work if I could afford to. Kudos. Don't do it. Voices like yours aren't meant to be "perfect". And I mean that in the best possible way.
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Post by jmoose on Mar 4, 2021 20:03:37 GMT -6
Andy Wallace also blends in the same samples for everyone. I’d get fired from or have to redo a ton of jobs if I did that. A lot of drummers hate that. South of Heaven sounds great though but it’s still has that filtered sound and the reverb and delays are just grainy compared to the first two records. The Nevermind kicks sound like dribbling basketballs but I don’t think he did that. The drum samples are a myth that's been blown completely out of proportion. I've loaded his samples from DAT to Roland sde for one shots... might still have a copy on a hard drive somewhere. Andy never outright replaced drums. Totally false. And at least the project I worked on those channels weren't even assigned to the stereo mix... they were driving effects.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2021 20:27:41 GMT -6
Andy Wallace also blends in the same samples for everyone. I’d get fired from or have to redo a ton of jobs if I did that. A lot of drummers hate that. South of Heaven sounds great though but it’s still has that filtered sound and the reverb and delays are just grainy compared to the first two records. The Nevermind kicks sound like dribbling basketballs but I don’t think he did that. The drum samples are a myth that's been blown completely out of proportion. I've loaded his samples from DAT to Roland sde for one shots... might still have a copy on a hard drive somewhere. Andy never outright replaced drums. Totally false. And at least the project I worked on those channels weren't even assigned to the stereo mix... they were driving effects. Good to hear that’s mostly just hearsay and it’s impressive he made things sound big like that without samples! What I’m hearing might just be his personal eq style. He defined an era of popular rock and metal that’s sadly gone.
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Post by superwack on Mar 4, 2021 20:37:25 GMT -6
He mostly uses the samples to trigger the drum ambiences. I'm not saying Andy is my favorite mixer sonically - I'm just saying he's really good at what he does
I think if you listen to some of his more recent albums like Portugal the Man, Avenged Sevenfold, The Voidz, or Ghost I think you come away with the fact he's a great mixer who is obviously giving the bands what they want as the albums don't sound alike. I don't really vibe with the sound of the Avenged record at all but I love the Portugal and Voidz ones so while he's got his tricks I think he delivers the goods.
Side note - nothing I hate more than the Sennheiser 421 Basketball Kick sound (woof!)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2021 20:50:10 GMT -6
He mostly uses the samples to trigger the drum ambiences. I'm not saying Andy is my favorite mixer sonically - I'm just saying he's really good at what he does I think if you listen to some of his more recent albums like Portugal the Man, Avenged Sevenfold, The Voidz, or Ghost I think you come away with the fact he's a great mixer who is obviously giving the bands what they want as the albums don't sound alike. I don't really vibe with the sound of the Avenged record at all but I love the Portugal and Voidz ones so while he's got his tricks I think he delivers the goods. Side note - nothing I hate more than the Sennheiser 421 Basketball Kick sound (woof!) Really? They used an MD421 on kick? I love it on guitars. Kick? ??What? ??
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Post by superwack on Mar 4, 2021 21:39:47 GMT -6
He mostly uses the samples to trigger the drum ambiences. I'm not saying Andy is my favorite mixer sonically - I'm just saying he's really good at what he does I think if you listen to some of his more recent albums like Portugal the Man, Avenged Sevenfold, The Voidz, or Ghost I think you come away with the fact he's a great mixer who is obviously giving the bands what they want as the albums don't sound alike. I don't really vibe with the sound of the Avenged record at all but I love the Portugal and Voidz ones so while he's got his tricks I think he delivers the goods. Side note - nothing I hate more than the Sennheiser 421 Basketball Kick sound (woof!) Really? They used an MD421 on kick? I love it on guitars. Kick? ??What? ?? Don’t know for a fact on Nirvana but, yeah, for some reason 421’s are a “classic” kick mic and I ALWAYS hate them on kick. I do Love em on guitars too though Edit: Drum setup for Nevermind: Kick - D12 with a drum tunnel, FET 47 at the end Snare top - 57 Bottom - 451 Hat - KM84? Cymbals - KM84's and 414's Room - U87's Still hate 421s on kick 🤣
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Post by guitfiddler on Mar 4, 2021 23:59:29 GMT -6
I’ll read the other posts when I have time, and I hope this doesn’t come off as being arrogant, and I’m not saying I know everything, I’m just speaking from my own experience. Good rooms with a good monitoring system? If you have good talent, nice mics, good players, nice preamps, nice outboard, nice converters and a nice monitoring system, you shouldn’t have to do much, just a touch here or there. I notice this most with a very nice analog console. Push up the faders and you’re already very close! I’m not saying I know everything, and I’m not making money anymore in the music industry. I have put in a lot of hours over a few decades on both sides of the glass in several rooms over the United States in different rooms with different consoles and hybrid systems. I still have my crazy hybrid setup at home after retiring 4 analog consoles, reel to reel tape machines, 4 track machines, Cd recorder machines, hard disk machines, etc...but IME a good talent in a solid room with standard pro outboard, an analog console, and an HDX system/radar system was the Schnizzle every time. Of course, knowing your gear and doing it over and over and over again!!!! I’m still a sucker for a nice big beautiful pro console in a beautiful sounding room! Oh, and one more thing....you have to have a UAD Apollo interface w/Luna! 👍🏻 Of course, I’m just kidding! I have two Apollo interfaces, and really like Luna so far. Lol
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 5, 2021 2:48:56 GMT -6
I also like the idea of using just a few key EQs.
My go too as the Waves SSL EQ. I don't know why, I just like it. No fancy graphics, its just knobs. I guess I did mix on an SSL Duality for a while. I love the HPF on it for 1 and use allllll the time. Then its just using your ears until it sounds right. I just like it. Simple.
Then the Soundtoys SiEQ for some broad stroke attitude has been my other one. Often used with the SSL even if I just use the HPF on the SSL.
And then DMGs Equality for precision stuff.
I use hardware eqs as well but much differently. I can do a LOT with those three ITB eqs. Really just the SSL would be good for me most of the time.
and on an Andy Wallace note. I love that dudes mixes. Rage against the Machine..I mean come on! Killer. And Audio Slave(same band). Soooo much power. A Perfect circle too. In fact I was sad the new APC album wasn't mixed by him. It showed.
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 5, 2021 2:49:55 GMT -6
This thread has some great comments. When mixing, I'm definitely in the camp of Choose One EQ and do everything with it. I stick with the API and that restrains my movement a bit. I find that it works well most of the time. AND... I think it was Bob Ohlson who shared this: by operating with a single EQ, it creates a type of cohesion in a mix. If nothing else, it makes the work faster... and THAT can create cohesiveness on its own. And yes, gain matching is ideal. For ITB tools, autogain should be a standard option. I generally belive that auto anything is to be avoided.
Who's mixing - you or the robot?
Lol they are talking about gain matching the outputs of the EQ so you don't get "fooled" into thinking it is actually better.
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Post by jpanderson80 on Mar 5, 2021 9:33:56 GMT -6
I generally belive that auto anything is to be avoided.
Who's mixing - you or the robot?
Lol they are talking about gain matching the outputs of the EQ so you don't get "fooled" into thinking it is actually better. John, Blackdawg, summed it up. Even a 0.5 bump in volume can trick folks easily. And that can easily be accounted for and remedied - therefore, I'm saying that I'd appreciate it if it were accounted for. Another idea: VISION... this is an idea that's needed from the beginning and takes experience to develop. With vision for the final sound, I think it's easier to not over EQ or overprocess because you have a clear idea of where you're going and what sound you're moving towards. I think that vision helps to stop over EQing.
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Post by swurveman on Mar 5, 2021 10:09:48 GMT -6
I sometimes wonder if the visual nature of the DAW, where that plugin is taking up a big space in the screen, kinda begs for attention, where in the old days the EQ was a small part of the overall system, and was more tactile.
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 5, 2021 13:48:43 GMT -6
I sometimes wonder if the visual nature of the DAW, where that plugin is taking up a big space in the screen, kinda begs for attention, where in the old days the EQ was a small part of the overall system, and was more tactile. Thats one of the things I like about the SSL EQ from Waves. It doesn't do that.
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Post by popmann on Mar 5, 2021 15:44:18 GMT -6
I just did three mixes for a buddy....i used nothing but the 32c EQ. Now....i print a little going in, including printing drum samples. But, I feel like thats LESS surgical....more like 1dbof 1073 top on the way to a tape sim.
I wonder if i got me some of them fancy mastering level monitoring if Id be making rollercoasters on everything?
What i like about the 32c is it does a nice job of natural volume offsetting, so even a 250hz boost on a snare doesn't really make it louder. Probabaly helps that theres no real frequency readout either....Just percentages of the dial that has silk screens....so, its old school—boost the crap out of it, spin it around to find the ugly, and cut it back...or findthe nice and back the boost down....i would like tp replace my Specks with a couple Great River 32c analog so its the same in or out of da box.
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Post by jmoose on Mar 5, 2021 16:18:10 GMT -6
I look forward to some stories! I love Andy's work. I have one specific story about Nirvana's Live at the Paramount but its involved and is gonna take some time to get there... Promise it'll be worth the wait! I knew that whole show existed for years, the masters were in the tape vault of the studio I worked at as staff engineer. What might be kinda interesting is Andy mixed a trio of records over about a year that all followed a similar architecture... Obviously Nirvana's Nevermind. Tracked at Sound City on the infamous Neve and mixed by Andy on an SSL 4000E at Quantum Sound in Jersey City. First Rage Against the Machine record was the same. Sound City > Quantum Sound The third record is a bit more off the radar... Rollins Band End of Silence was recorded by Andy at Showplace Studios in NJ (my first gig years later) in October 91 and mixed at Quantum on the 4000E literally just a few months after Nevermind. The Showplace console was an Amek Mozart fitted with RN modules, RN for Rupert Neve. We had the masters, mostly outtakes for Rollins in the vault and those were what I pulled to learn the console & automation. He certainly did some interesting stuff in tracking and really carved things up. Andy used the Showplace for a few things and eventually Quantum Sound became Big Blue Meenie, which was owned by my real life bud and interknot legend Slipperman. Anywhoo...
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Post by jeremygillespie on Mar 6, 2021 9:09:47 GMT -6
I look forward to some stories! I love Andy's work. I have one specific story about Nirvana's Live at the Paramount but its involved and is gonna take some time to get there... Promise it'll be worth the wait! I knew that whole show existed for years, the masters were in the tape vault of the studio I worked at as staff engineer. What might be kinda interesting is Andy mixed a trio of records over about a year that all followed a similar architecture... Obviously Nirvana's Nevermind. Tracked at Sound City on the infamous Neve and mixed by Andy on an SSL 4000E at Quantum Sound in Jersey City. First Rage Against the Machine record was the same. Sound City > Quantum Sound The third record is a bit more off the radar... Rollins Band End of Silence was recorded by Andy at Showplace Studios in NJ (my first gig years later) in October 91 and mixed at Quantum on the 4000E literally just a few months after Nevermind. The Showplace console was an Amek Mozart fitted with RN modules, RN for Rupert Neve. We had the masters, mostly outtakes for Rollins in the vault and those were what I pulled to learn the console & automation. He certainly did some interesting stuff in tracking and really carved things up. Andy used the Showplace for a few things and eventually Quantum Sound became Big Blue Meenie, which was owned by my real life bud and interknot legend Slipperman. Anywhoo... I didn’t realize you worked at Showplace. I didn’t hear of Ben’s passing until months after unfortunately. That console was pretty cool you could keep feeding it and it would just take it and not blow up! Did he have the pair of black germanium Neve channel strips while you were there?
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Post by jmoose on Mar 6, 2021 12:03:17 GMT -6
I didn’t realize you worked at Showplace. I didn’t hear of Ben’s passing until months after unfortunately. That console was pretty cool you could keep feeding it and it would just take it and not blow up! Did he have the pair of black germanium Neve channel strips while you were there? The black 1058... no... but I had used them. Those were owned by Jason Corsaro and he brought them along when he booked the room. Ben got them after Jason passed away. I live somewhat near the studio and it's closed for good. Happened to drive past in October and there was a for sale sign on the building... the Mozart & some other stuff was listed on reverb. Not sure what happened with all the outboard. I started at Showplace as an intern. Got promoted to house engineer when the guy in front of me left in the middle of a session for smokes and never came back!
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Post by jeremygillespie on Mar 6, 2021 12:58:44 GMT -6
I didn’t realize you worked at Showplace. I didn’t hear of Ben’s passing until months after unfortunately. That console was pretty cool you could keep feeding it and it would just take it and not blow up! Did he have the pair of black germanium Neve channel strips while you were there? The black 1058... no... but I had used them. Those were owned by Jason Corsaro and he brought them along when he booked the room. Ben got them after Jason passed away. I live somewhat near the studio and it's closed for good. Happened to drive past in October and there was a for sale sign on the building... the Mozart & some other stuff was listed on reverb. Not sure what happened with all the outboard. I started at Showplace as an intern. Got promoted to house engineer when the guy in front of me left in the middle of a session for smokes and never came back! Jason had 4 and sold a pair to Ben when he needed some fast cash for a surgery years ago. He kept his other pair and had this really cool Mercenary rack for them that could also fit some other pieces. I worked with Jason for about 12 years and he was a very dear friend up until the end. Both of them left the world way too early. I know Jason’s sister was selling some of his gear but I have no clue where most of it went to. Wish I had the money to buy his Pye compressors. Them along with a pair of Ba-6a’s and some Spectrasonics pieces were the first pieces of gear he purchased when he was making real money as a kid in the industry. His basement was full of some seriously cool stuff!
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Post by mulmany on Mar 6, 2021 21:19:42 GMT -6
I didn’t realize you worked at Showplace. I didn’t hear of Ben’s passing until months after unfortunately. That console was pretty cool you could keep feeding it and it would just take it and not blow up! Did he have the pair of black germanium Neve channel strips while you were there? The black 1058... no... but I had used them. Those were owned by Jason Corsaro and he brought them along when he booked the room. Ben got them after Jason passed away. I live somewhat near the studio and it's closed for good. Happened to drive past in October and there was a for sale sign on the building... the Mozart & some other stuff was listed on reverb. Not sure what happened with all the outboard. I started at Showplace as an intern. Got promoted to house engineer when the guy in front of me left in the middle of a session for smokes and never came back! So odd you guys started to talk about Showplace... I interned there in '03 as part of CRAS. I ended up having some family stuff come up and moved back home, Ben wanted to keep me on. I tried to dig up any current info on the studio a bit ago and could not find anything. I suspected it closed. Sorry to hear about Ben's passing.
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