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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 23:00:51 GMT -6
depends. For stuff like API, they’re all bad and could accurately model certain hardware and still sound bad, and Neve 1073 models, Just pick one and you can get in the parking lot of the ball park. the better ones are all just bad in different ways. UAD plugs tend have a digital modern sheen to them while others are just gritty or farty. I hate the sheen but a lot of people like it. UAD models many things where there is no native alternative or the native ones barely work. There are only a handful of modeled FET type plugs that don’t click (Overloud V2, PA Purple, PSP), only a couple of optical compressors that work (majority of them were coded by the same guy), and one Manley, The Pulsar, where the oversampling is dysfunctional and sidechain detector dysfunctional so it has a look ahead, which doesn’t improve the detector but just shifts it. The problem is UAD runs on sharc chips instead of modern CPUs so they can’t run as complex algorithms or detectors as the best native comps if you don’t want 90% of the way there to whatever popular hardware they model but not really there. Yeah, I have compared many many plugins. I have a bunch of UAD as my go-tos. But I have maybe the same amount or even a bit more of Native ones as my go-tos as well. They all lack the same thing compared to hardware, they are all 95% there to my ears. At the same time they all sound extremely good and have not stopped me from doing a great mix as far as I know. Honest question: How can they all be 95% there if nobody has recreated the detector and sidechain behavior digitally? Most of the classics aren't there. but a few digital compressors are 100% as advertised with less issues than most analog ones. The hypemen on gearslutz are like a cargo cult arguing their imaginably effective digital stuff are effective tools and the same tonally vs using the 100% there digital tools.
Sure there are the few decent emulations (The Glue, UAD Neve and LA2A, Ray Dratwa, etc) but they pick their battles so to speak and have duds like the UAD SSL and API bus comps, The Glue at under 8X oversampling, and the clicky VLA FET.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 23:16:55 GMT -6
Maybe 5% at moderate settings but pushing for tone & using for color / creatively it’s anywhere from 10-25% especially when it comes to distortion, harmonics, & saturation. ( MB ITB thread w/ clipped Black Boxes & 9KJ’s ) Yeah and most of this gear can be PUSHED and still sound good or at least cool. All buttons in, 1 ms attack auto release SSL bus riding the faders like a madman, while the the LAs can be decked and the STA and EMI compressors took even more so. I don't know how the same people made the Black Box and Neold v76u73b for PA. One is instant plastic pop drums, the other causes anyone who wants "plastic" or "lofi" tubes to raise an eyebrow. All the SSL bus comp plugs crap out, even the Glue maxes out at 16x real time oversampling. I mean like the detector probably needs to hit 32-64x oversampling or something to not bounce around at .1 attack. It needs to be higher. It also doesn't model the SSL tone. UAD tries for some kind of boxtone but it doesn't come close to anything SSL I've used and the compressor craps out faster than the Glue. Even the SSL 2 4k grind button is closer. These things don't even try to get the NE5532, DBX, or THAT VCA sound. The Purple MC77 and Overloud 76 V2 turn into soft clippers. Meanwhile Molot GE feels like you're playing with space alien tech, especially if you stick a cool EQ like PSP or Fuse after it to get the highs back.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 23:22:31 GMT -6
using most plugin emulations to get the job done is like trying to grill steak like this
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 10, 2021 1:21:03 GMT -6
I have been reminded how good HW can be with my new D Comp. There is a bottom end going through that that I just don’t get with plugs. There’s a weight. But I have heard thousands and thousands of songs in my life and never once thought, “boy - that 1176 plug on that snare just doesn’t sound real.” More and more, II know for sure it’s the Indian not the arrow (I’m canceled) In fact, I often go back and listen to old tunes that I grew up with that I thought were the pinnacle of greatness...and more often than not, it just isn’t sonically where I would want it to be if I were mixing it. Now - that’s often a limitation of the time period...and there are obviously exceptions (Miles - Kind Of Blue, Mac - Rumours, Beatles lots of things, etc) But my goodness we are overlooking the most important stuff - the song and performance. I’m not being sanctimonious - I have to remind myself that all the time...but listen to some Marvin Gaye - distortion because of lack of headroom. Who the hell cares? You hear his voice?
So why do I have a gear forum and I’m saying this kind of shit? I guess because I just feel like there’s not a wrong way to do all of this. For me, right now - with the jobs I get - I am mostly ITB. I don’t get paid enough to have 5 revisions with multiple pieces of hardware on the mix and then printing mix with mastering now master, tv mix, instrumental, vocal up...and on and on. I don’t get paid enough. Now, occasionally, I do...and I use the hw for my projects...but that’s where I am these days. So to bring this epistle home, I am super thankful for these SW equivalents.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 10, 2021 3:46:04 GMT -6
You are just being honest Johnken. I preferred my OB stuff too but I looked at the money I’d sunk into it, also the convenience of plug ins, meaning I’m lazy and liked not having to reset everything and decided to sell and go back in box.
I still prefer OB on the way in and while sonically, I do think unison sounds good, I prefer using a real pre and there is certainly a tactile preference there too, the feel. I’d love to buy another 2-4 channels of real pres and try to stay away from the weight tank, Audioscape and stam (Neumann and Helios clone) sites:).
I took a hard look at the dangerous ad+ for all its features and recently one was up on eBay, I chatted with the guy: he was selling his ad/da converts and had bought Apollo X and was perfectly happy:stopped me in my buying tracks.
You can add a good ob element with key pieces on your 2 bus: silver bullet comes to mind, a good 2 channel pre with inserts and transformers and a good bus comp (Audioscape, stam, Warm), have used all three.
But, I also really appreciate for me a few UA standbys in my 2 bus: ampex, Manley vu, massive passive or chandler bender, chandler limiter or fab filter.
Guess, depending on your pocket book it’s good to have choices? Objective shootouts like these are helpful as you can hear the difference and weigh the benefits and costs and decide.
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 10, 2021 5:50:13 GMT -6
UAD is always 95% of the real thing. But it always lack oomph (good buzzword) and depth. In a mix these things does accumulates. True, but in my experience by the time you have put a hardware VCA compressor into a hardware Vari MU tube compressor into a hardware tube EQ on the stereo mix bus that 5% is easily restored and you have all the advantages of workflow and only have to recall 3 pieces of hardware.
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Post by phantom on Jan 10, 2021 5:52:33 GMT -6
Maybe 5% at moderate settings but pushing for tone & using for color / creatively it’s anywhere from 10-25% especially when it comes to distortion, harmonics, & saturation. ( MB ITB thread w/ clipped Black Boxes & 9KJ’s ) Yeah and most of this gear can be PUSHED and still sound good or at least cool. All buttons in, 1 ms attack auto release SSL bus riding the faders like a madman, while the the LAs can be decked and the STA and EMI compressors took even more so. I don't know how the same people made the Black Box and Neold v76u73b for PA. One is instant plastic pop drums, the other causes anyone who wants "plastic" or "lofi" tubes to raise an eyebrow. All the SSL bus comp plugs crap out, even the Glue maxes out at 16x real time oversampling. I mean like the detector probably needs to hit 32-64x oversampling or something to not bounce around at .1 attack. It needs to be higher. It also doesn't model the SSL tone. UAD tries for some kind of boxtone but it doesn't come close to anything SSL I've used and the compressor craps out faster than the Glue. Even the SSL 2 4k grind button is closer. These things don't even try to get the NE5532, DBX, or THAT VCA sound. The Purple MC77 and Overloud 76 V2 turn into soft clippers. Meanwhile Molot GE feels like you're playing with space alien tech, especially if you stick a cool EQ like PSP or Fuse after it to get the highs back. I have not understood, do you like TDR Molot?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 13:10:20 GMT -6
Yeah and most of this gear can be PUSHED and still sound good or at least cool. All buttons in, 1 ms attack auto release SSL bus riding the faders like a madman, while the the LAs can be decked and the STA and EMI compressors took even more so. I don't know how the same people made the Black Box and Neold v76u73b for PA. One is instant plastic pop drums, the other causes anyone who wants "plastic" or "lofi" tubes to raise an eyebrow. All the SSL bus comp plugs crap out, even the Glue maxes out at 16x real time oversampling. I mean like the detector probably needs to hit 32-64x oversampling or something to not bounce around at .1 attack. It needs to be higher. It also doesn't model the SSL tone. UAD tries for some kind of boxtone but it doesn't come close to anything SSL I've used and the compressor craps out faster than the Glue. Even the SSL 2 4k grind button is closer. These things don't even try to get the NE5532, DBX, or THAT VCA sound. The Purple MC77 and Overloud 76 V2 turn into soft clippers. Meanwhile Molot GE feels like you're playing with space alien tech, especially if you stick a cool EQ like PSP or Fuse after it to get the highs back. I have not understood, do you like TDR Molot? Yes the new Molot is so much better behaved than almost any other digital compressor that’s not supposed to be clean “mastering compressor” but the box tone is not bright, sheeny, or plastic enough for “modern music” whose timbre and dynamics are built on certain IC distortion and typical digital artifacts
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Post by phantom on Jan 10, 2021 13:43:49 GMT -6
I have not understood, do you like TDR Molot? Yes the new Molot is so much better behaved than almost any other digital compressor that’s not supposed to be clean “mastering compressor” but the box tone is not bright, sheeny, or plastic enough for “modern music” whose timbre and dynamics are built on certain IC distortion and typical digital artifacts Great, I have to try it now. Is the free version as good?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 17:13:47 GMT -6
Yes the new Molot is so much better behaved than almost any other digital compressor that’s not supposed to be clean “mastering compressor” but the box tone is not bright, sheeny, or plastic enough for “modern music” whose timbre and dynamics are built on certain IC distortion and typical digital artifacts Great, I have to try it now. Is the free version as good? It's good but nowhere near as great as the full version on insane. The GE gives you feedback compression, adjustable the secondary time constants, relaxed and instant mode button, and the insane mode which makes very short attack and release times work to eviscerate things without sounding like a soft clipper like PA Purple MC77 and Overloud 76 oft do
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jan 10, 2021 18:37:52 GMT -6
I think they’ve nailed the 2254. It sounds and behaves like the real pair we had at the studio that I honestly never liked and thought they turned everything to mush.
I think they are missing like 15% off the 33609 though. Maybe it’s because they modeled the C and the ones I’ve used are the originals.
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Post by Mister Chase on Jan 12, 2021 15:19:49 GMT -6
Just bought the Neve dynamics bundle. I would love a 33609 type some day in hardware form(ams or maybe heritage) but the plugs sound good and I got them for 125 each. I'll gladly use them for that.
I was watching white sea studios video on the heritage vs a 33609 and the Neve just had that creamy rich sweetening thing. The Heritage is nice but even it doesn't get all the way there and I won't have $4k for a comp any time soon.
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Post by nobtwiddler on Jan 12, 2021 16:34:42 GMT -6
So here's a question.... Although I thought the Neve comparisons was pretty damn good in the video...
Where do you guys sit on this... I know a lot of you are much younger than me, so there's that perspective.
I own, almost every Comp / Eq / Pre Amp / I could ever want. And have sold more than anyone has ever needed. This stuff was purchased NOT for my clients, but for me, and my specific sonic requirements to do what ever I do.
But as John stated, as of late, no one has time, nor $$$ to spend on doing things the old way. And in my opinion, the right way. Sadly, not even the major clients / bands I've worked with over the last 45 years! No time, no money. So be it.
Every damn thing is a rush, and add to that the recall bullshit.
So for the last few years, I record and mix everyday, (still got to work, right?) although not totally happy in what I'm doing, and the way I'm doing it. Computers plug in's etc.
I just believe it's the slow dumbing down of our industry, taking away a little bit of fidelity, vibe, emotion, at a time, so no one really notices.
That said, I've been pretty happy with the results of the last few years of working this way, and the clients too... BUT what's bringing me down, is the fact I have all this gear that I know intimately, that just sits unpowered, and unused for the most part, because of this new paradigm. It's actually very depressing.
Although it might have taken more time, I listen to stuff I did years ago, (2 inch with all the outboard) and man did it have a vibe, a sonic signature that I just don't hear as of late.
Like I said, the slow sonic degradation of our industry. No matter what anyone tells me, using what's left of my two ears, the REAL ANALOG OUTBOARD just sounds better!
Maybe it's just me, or the last three Delirium Noels, I had...
Over & Out.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 12, 2021 16:49:20 GMT -6
I think everything you said is just the truth. I went through the same thing but in a smaller ob way. Ever heard the one about: Q. How many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb ? A. One, but it has to want to change! Meant humorously, not critically !
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Post by nobtwiddler on Jan 12, 2021 16:56:11 GMT -6
Haha! Good one.
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Post by Mister Chase on Jan 12, 2021 18:24:25 GMT -6
I'm relatively young I guess. I never worked outside of digital professionally. I grew up with analog but I'm in a weird transitional spot time wise at 36.
I do really enjoy all the things possible in digital, though the hardware, while limited, seems to just do it's thing better. I like the limitations of hardware eq and comps. Being able to do anything is good sometimes but most of the time a waste. But outside of my own work and one friend who is a client, I can't imagine mixing with hardware much in this day and age. That's why I do appreciate good plugs. Yea in the end the mix isn't as good but if I have to work ITB I want plugs like these most of the time.
It's also why I work like hell to get the sound going in with great mics and hardware. The closer I am to the end result at tracking the better.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 12, 2021 18:46:48 GMT -6
“It's also why I work like hell to get the sound going in with great mics and hardware. The closer I am to the end result at tracking the better.”
Say it brother !
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2021 19:19:20 GMT -6
So here's a question.... Although I thought the Neve comparisons was pretty damn good in the video... Where do you guys sit on this... I know a lot of you are much younger than me, so there's that perspective. I own, almost every Comp / Eq / Pre Amp / I could ever want. And have sold more than anyone has ever needed. This stuff was purchased NOT for my clients, but for me, and my specific sonic requirements to do what ever I do. But as John stated, as of late, no one has time, nor $$$ to spend on doing things the old way. And in my opinion, the right way. Sadly, not even the major clients / bands I've worked with over the last 45 years! No time, no money. So be it. Every damn thing is a rush, and add to that the recall bullshit. So for the last few years, I record and mix everyday, (still got to work, right?) although not totally happy in what I'm doing, and the way I'm doing it. Computers plug in's etc. I just believe it's the slow dumbing down of our industry, taking away a little bit of fidelity, vibe, emotion, at a time, so no one really notices. That said, I've been pretty happy with the results of the last few years of working this way, and the clients too... BUT what's bringing me down, is the fact I have all this gear that I know intimately, that just sits unpowered, and unused for the most part, because of this new paradigm. It's actually very depressing. Although it might have taken more time, I listen to stuff I did years ago, (2 inch with all the outboard) and man did it have a vibe, a sonic signature that I just don't hear as of late. Like I said, the slow sonic degradation of our industry. No matter what anyone tells me, using what's left of my two ears, the REAL ANALOG OUTBOARD just sounds better! Maybe it's just me, or the last three Delirium Noels, I had... Over & Out. A big problem is dsp can't realistically do many things at this point in time and the big plugin companies are trying to hammer a circular peg into a square hole instead of making dsp that works and sounds good. Nobody wants to limit themselves what digital currently does best, linear processes, and what digital can do very well in 2021: reverb, brickwall limiters, ridiculous eqs, soft knee compressors, crazy program dependent dynamic processing, and the best tube emulations. But where is my decent Marshall amp sim? None of them are really better then the old free LePou HyBrit. Companies also don't want to go back and fix their old DSP with Waves being the worst offender. Then we get the Black Box, UAD and others repackaging worse old plugs with better new plugs, that 400 dollar dirtbox Amek EQ, and stuff like Fabfilter that is devoted to mixing with your eyes and not your ears. Nevermind that there are cleaner EQs that don't sell as well because they're not as pretty but if prettier guis made supposedly better workflows that produced better mixes, I'm not hearing it. Others are trying to model stuff that just can't be modeled efficiently on current CPUs, like SSL dynamics, DBX 160, and 1176. A lot of these transistors and ICs haven't been modeled at all (The emulations of all the SSL hardware and Boss pedals sound so off) and if anything has a fast attack and hard knee, well then you need mhz range detector to make it work right and upsampling that high from 44.1 or 48 khz is going to add a crap ton of IMD from all the inaudible frequencies. So it's not even feasible until we get insanely powered CPUs and everything goes beyond Tokyo Dawn level of anti-aliasing filters. Most 88.2/96 kHz and up mixes already have problems with IMD from lack of low pass filters in most non-linear processes.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 13, 2021 4:57:47 GMT -6
I thought the UAD plugins sounded really nice in that shootout, love his unpretentious attitude as well.
Hardware is sexy and fun and all that stuff, I just can't seem to keep it here. I inevitably end up selling it down the river and buying cheap awesome sounding plugins.
Andrew Scheps has a good attitude about his mega racks that don't get used, calls them his "retirement fund." I think that's pretty smart. It's just "stuff" anyway. You can't take it with you.
I think spending that rack money on mics, speakers, instruments, mic preamps, and a bad-ass digital rig could really get you to some next level, if you're on a budget.
I am one of those weirdos that loves digital audio. DAC's and pure digital EQ plugins get me really excited. Computers are exciting. The analog obsession goes on the front and back end for me, as stated.
Whatever it takes to get the job done well and make the ears smile is OK.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 13, 2021 6:23:17 GMT -6
Andrew sold his racks about 1.5 years ago, so he already cashed in his retirement fund!
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Post by Guitar on Jan 13, 2021 6:26:23 GMT -6
Andrew sold his racks about 1.5 years ago, so he already cashed in his retirement fund! Oh cool! Did not know that. I guess he's all in then. I haven't heard anything he's mixed lately but I like his "philosophy" and his channel strip plugin.
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Post by nobtwiddler on Jan 13, 2021 12:49:03 GMT -6
Has everyone drank the "Cool Aid"?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 13, 2021 12:54:17 GMT -6
Has everyone drank the "Cool Aid"? I'm a nobody, but I use stacks of hardware preamps/eq/compression while tracking and mix in the box.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2021 13:03:48 GMT -6
Has everyone drank the "Cool Aid"? Yes and it gets worse because these guys are driving the digital needles into the red and clipping the output of the DAW. Straight up PCM clipping. Scheps is on video just shoving a limiter on the master out that was like +5 over until it’s under. Brauer clipped bx console and black box. Gross and the non-linearities and digital artifacts just compound with further processing, including in the dac chip. They don’t gainstage the plugins chains at all. It’s like they don’t know what floating point math is and can do without loss of resolution thus don’t want to trim and turn up the volume knob on their monitor controller.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 13, 2021 13:04:54 GMT -6
I am also a nobody, I have some hardware that gets used from time to time, some DIY Calrec EQs that are very good, an old Pioneer tube spring reverb, a Yamaha multi FX and an "upgraded" Behringer Composer, that survived the reckoning. I have some kits for a Serpent LA3A, a Serpent SSL compressor, a DIY "sontec" EQ, I always wanted a Hairball 1176, but these are on the back burner.
Mostly mic preamps in the racks here getting the most use.
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