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Post by the other mark williams on Oct 29, 2020 18:53:49 GMT -6
We used to call it "selling out" and it wasn't a good thing. Not in my world, anyway. "Corporate magazines still suck"
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 29, 2020 19:54:55 GMT -6
To an extent we all change what we do to make money, the question we all have to ask is how much are we willing to change to make x amount of money? At what point do we find a new way to make a living? I know people in almost every profession who have asked this same question. Exactly. It isn't realistic to expect a living and not adjust according to what is actually practical in order to make that living. I.E - making music that "sells" (figuratively speaking). Of course everyone does this to different degrees and the point is to find a balance in which you're providing for yourself and still having fun, it's not easy.
I had a publishing deal for almost two decades. I understand supply and demand. Maybe you’re not understanding what I’m saying. Writers do not get a big enough chunk of the pie.
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Post by mrholmes on Oct 29, 2020 19:54:56 GMT -6
In fact, they do own it all. There are no biz partners outside of the distribution percentage. Yup. Not everyone is in slimey 95/5 big label screwed up deals. MANY artists operate within indie labels that have much better deals than what was normal 15 years ago.
69 million streams is about 300K for a non hit song that most people wouldn't even know outside of spotify. If you are making music for the modern age - the pay is not bad, but you have to be actively making music that has a place among whats being given a platf orm.
No its not 300k and thats the problem....
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 29, 2020 20:01:21 GMT -6
We used to call it "selling out" and it wasn't a good thing. Not in my world, anyway. Ugh... Plenty of the most respected artists of all time let what is popular influence their art, much amazing music has come out of it. It isn't sacrilege. It's actually common.
And to be honest this thread was about making a living in the modern age. Not realizing your dream only the exact way you envisioned it without compromise. If you haven't compromised in some way, I doubt you make your living off of music.
Who’s saying you don’t have to play the game at all? No one. But you’re describing a paint by numbers approach that sounds fucking miserable to me. I’m FINE with reading commerce for art - I don’t expect anything to be given to me. But I DO expect to be paid fairly. If no one listens that’s my fault. If someone listens and I lm getting robbed, that’s bullshit. All this time - all I had to do was write some house.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 29, 2020 20:10:02 GMT -6
We used to call it "selling out" and it wasn't a good thing. Not in my world, anyway. Ugh... Plenty of the most respected artists of all time let what is popular influence their art, much amazing music has come out of it. It isn't sacrilege. It's actually common.
And to be honest this thread was about making a living in the modern age. Not realizing your dream only the exact way you envisioned it without compromise. If you haven't compromised in some way, I doubt you make your living off of music.
In my opinion, you’re coming off pretty sanctimoniously. Oh - 69 million streams - that’s all I need? No biggie. You seem to think this is pretty easy. Are you getting millions of streams? I will gladly defer to your keys to success in the modern age if you’d like to give us some examples. And I’m not talking about Childish Gambino.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 29, 2020 20:21:58 GMT -6
And btw - you realize that 69 million streams = $276,000 @.004/impression...Spotify keeps 30% of that off the top. Now it’s $193,200
If you don’t own the masters, take off 60% more. Now it’s $77,280
If you wrote it with another person, cut that in half. $38,640 oh - and if you have a publisher, they get their cut too.
So, look man...if you have the template to make three of these a year, I sincerely want to know the secret. Especially if you have the magic formula to get 70 million impressions without a label, a publisher or a co-writer.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 29, 2020 20:22:08 GMT -6
Yup. Not everyone is in slimey 95/5 big label screwed up deals. MANY artists operate within indie labels that have much better deals than what was normal 15 years ago.
69 million streams is about 300K for a non hit song that most people wouldn't even know outside of spotify. If you are making music for the modern age - the pay is not bad, but you have to be actively making music that has a place among whats being given a platf orm.
No its not 300k and thats the problem.... I'm getting about 300K from another source # for the math myself, which appears to be roughly an average number out of all the varying #s you can find. Not sure what you're implying, it's not clear. I do have a spreadsheet of quarterly streaming payments a label friend gave me to study, there'a line item for each track from each service at each rate, comes to 84K line items for 3 months time on a label catalog.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 29, 2020 20:25:34 GMT -6
No its not 300k and thats the problem.... I'm getting about 300K from another source # for the math myself, which appears to be roughly an average number out of all the varying #s you can find. Not sure what you're implying, it's not clear. I do have a spreadsheet of quarterly streaming payments a label friend gave me to study, there'a line item for each track from each service at each rate, comes to 84K line items for 3 months time on a label catalog. Yeah my ASCAP and BMI statements give me breakdowns from each streaming service. I think Mrholmes was saying $300k is not a realistic take-him amount for the average musician that somehow gets to 70 million streams...that most likely there’s a long line of hands in the pie.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 29, 2020 20:28:09 GMT -6
So I should change what I write to make money. Ok. Good talk. The truth is, that independent might be making a decent wage - but you’ve heard of marketing, right? That costs money. Just found this tunemunk.com/spotify-royalty-calculator/So - 1,000,000 = $4000 to be split between all publishers and songwriters. That’s not enough. Period. And I guess why it gets me hot is that saying “you’re just not writing the right music if you’re getting screwed” is akin to saying “if you didn’t want that guy to feel you up you shouldn’t have worn that skirt.” Regardless of whether someone buys my music, We should be paid a fair wage. It's a balance. I agree it should be more per stream, and it would be nice if it was, but is 30-40% more per sale gonna get OP the result he wanted?
We all know a certain amount of pandering to what is viable in the modern age is required for a career in music. That's just business 101.
Priority should be: 1. does the music you're a part of have a real audience in todays day and age? 2. Are you marketing to the degree it needs and on modern platforms and in ways that are relevant?
Those will be the difference in a career before 30-40% more per sale or stream is, IMO.
Writing something that I have no love for sounds like a desk job to me.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 29, 2020 20:28:58 GMT -6
And btw - you realize that 69 million streams = $276,000 @.004/impression...Spotify keeps 30% of that off the top. Now it’s $193,200 I hear 30% for CDbaby/etc as distributor, haven't heard it as a Spotify take. I see people with 15% distributor deals too.
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Post by OtisGreying on Oct 29, 2020 20:41:21 GMT -6
Spotify doesn't take 30%. The .004-.005 per stream has spotify's fee built in. 300K would be the payout more or less. Many artists have 0% fee distributors/flat fee yearly. Distrokid - 40$ a year or something.
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Post by Ward on Oct 29, 2020 20:43:13 GMT -6
Thanks again for the support guys.... All picked up and dusted off, and back into it. Recut an old tune, Johnkenn this is Logics Vintage organ in use....its good enough till something better comes along... certainly in my fingers....I have to overdub the rotary speaker speed changes. Words Fall Down Like Rain
Cheers Wiz Sounds awesome man! Love that first verse. So just my opinion, but I think steel would really take that over the top. Yeah. wiz has this way of starting every song like the conversation you've been waiting your whole day for. I understand why donr loves his voice as much as I do. Blessings and namaste, Queensland Man!
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Post by Ward on Oct 29, 2020 20:44:40 GMT -6
Independents were making money from heavy touring and merch. Now .... Right. Prior to Rona, that was about the only way to return your investment. Rona is going to magically start disappearing in another week. ;-)
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Post by Ward on Oct 29, 2020 20:45:28 GMT -6
We used to call it "selling out" and it wasn't a good thing. Not in my world, anyway. "Corporate magazines still suck" I dunno man . . . there are still a few redeeming graces, a scattered piece of pulp that is worth reading here and there.
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Post by OtisGreying on Oct 29, 2020 20:45:31 GMT -6
Johnkenn, don't get me wrong I know it is very difficult. The layout for streaming is very partial to those who are trending and already have followings. It is built to favor them, a small time independent trying to sell records locally is going to hurt most from this change as OP explained as a pay by play plan doesn't scale to favor them.
That being said, if you can embrace the change and scout the new opportunities that are available you may be able to find yourself on the right side of the coin and find that for those who consider being flexible the opportunity to make a living in music now is actually in a lot of ways more possible than ever, that's what I believe.
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Post by Ward on Oct 29, 2020 20:46:53 GMT -6
I'm getting about 300K from another source # for the math myself, which appears to be roughly an average number out of all the varying #s you can find. Not sure what you're implying, it's not clear. I do have a spreadsheet of quarterly streaming payments a label friend gave me to study, there'a line item for each track from each service at each rate, comes to 84K line items for 3 months time on a label catalog. Yeah my ASCAP and BMI statements give me breakdowns from each streaming service. I think Mrholmes was saying $300k is not a realistic take-him amount for the average musician that somehow gets to 70 million streams...that most likely there’s a long line of hands in the pie. A semi-annual cowriter partner of mine and I routinely split the $50 streaming check. Yeah, that's where things are.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2020 20:51:01 GMT -6
In fact, they do own it all. There are no biz partners outside of the distribution percentage. Yup. Not everyone is in slimey 95/5 big label screwed up deals. MANY artists operate within indie labels that have much better deals than what was normal 15 years ago.
69 million streams is about 300K for a non hit song that most people wouldn't even know outside of spotify. If you are making music for the modern age - the pay is not bad, but you have to be actively making music that has a place among whats being given a platform.
The indie deals were often much worse than the major ones. It was a lemon market like the shitty clone gear market. The major 95/5 split with an advance to recoup or they own the rights until long after you die or recoup your advance (sometimes impossible through hollywood accounting even if the advance was recouped right away selling off foreign pressing rights) is better than a lot of indie deals. Many of the people who got signed to majors or subsidiaries got to have careers in music and not work outside of music for years. People know what to expect. Some of the guys running some of the older indie labels are still some of the most unethical scumbags around. Others are very ethical but sold out or sold their labels long ago. But a lot of them were total scum of the earth parasites who essentially took everything to pay for big houses, cars, pricey education for their children, divorces, drugs, you name it while the artists were always struggling to make ends meet, including the ones who released the handful of records that paid for everything.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 29, 2020 20:54:19 GMT -6
Yup. Not everyone is in slimey 95/5 big label screwed up deals. MANY artists operate within indie labels that have much better deals than what was normal 15 years ago.
69 million streams is about 300K for a non hit song that most people wouldn't even know outside of spotify. If you are making music for the modern age - the pay is not bad, but you have to be actively making music that has a place among whats being given a platform.
The indie deals were often much worse than the major ones. It was a lemon market like the shitty clone gear market. The major 95/5 split with an advance to recoup or they own the rights until long after you die or recoup your advance (sometimes impossible through hollywood accounting even if the advance was recouped right away selling off foreign pressing rights) is better than a lot of indie deals. Many of the people who got signed got to have careers in music and not work outside of music for years. People know what to expect. Some of the guys running some of the older indie labels are still some of the most unethical scumbags around. Others are very ethical but sold out or sold their labels long ago. But a lot of them were total scum of the earth parasites who essentially took everything to pay for big houses, cars, pricey education for their children, divorces, drugs, you name it while the artists were always struggling to ends meet, including the ones who released the handful of records that paid for everything. Totally agree
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 29, 2020 21:00:17 GMT -6
Spotify doesn't take 30%. The .004-.005 per stream has spotify's fee built in. 300K would be the payout more or less. Many artists have 0% fee distributors/flat fee yearly. Distrokid - 40$ a year or something. If the .004 is post 30% cut, I’m getting royally screwed somewhere in the line...because I do not get .004 per stream. www.stereogum.com/1587932/spotify-explains-royalty-payments/news/
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Post by Ward on Oct 29, 2020 21:01:37 GMT -6
distrokid cost me $25 last year.
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Post by the other mark williams on Oct 29, 2020 21:14:15 GMT -6
"Corporate magazines still suck" I dunno man . . . there are still a few redeeming graces, a scattered piece of pulp that is worth reading here and there. It was on Kurt Cobain's shirt on the front of Rolling Stone, man. After they asked the band to show up to the photo shoot wearing clothing with no writing on it. That's the punk and alt-90s attitude that I miss, like with Rage Against the Machine, too.
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 29, 2020 21:18:05 GMT -6
This whole thread is very interesting but it seems like there’s 2-3 separate arguments happening at the same time...
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Post by OtisGreying on Oct 29, 2020 21:19:05 GMT -6
It's a balance. I agree it should be more per stream, and it would be nice if it was, but is 30-40% more per sale gonna get OP the result he wanted?
We all know a certain amount of pandering to what is viable in the modern age is required for a career in music. That's just business 101.
Priority should be: 1. does the music you're a part of have a real audience in todays day and age? 2. Are you marketing to the degree it needs and on modern platforms and in ways that are relevant?
Those will be the difference in a career before 30-40% more per sale or stream is, IMO.
Writing something that I have no love for sounds like a desk job to me. I get it, and this is just one example but take many musicians in Nashville for instance. Many of these guys are serious top notch musicians, and most of them spend a decent portion of their calendar playing on records that aren't unique, are frequently corny, don't have many redeeming qualities other than their marketability. They take the work cause they have to eat, but also because it gives them the opportunity to get paid to work on the few gems that come around every year that they can feel proud to have been a part of. That's the way I look at it.
Could the beatles have made their late amazingly creative records without recording 12 on the nose love songs in a row for their first record to appease fans, get signed and establish themselves?
I know I'm not bringing to light anything you don't already know, but it's worth pointing out that this is the reality of it. As you know, you take the good with the bad.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 29, 2020 21:22:11 GMT -6
Just checked my Spotify Premium average income. Obviously, this is after co-writers and pub deals and not owning the masters. My deals were standard deals in Nashville. I made $.00007714 per impression. At that rate, it would be $5322.76 for 69 Million spins. Which is about the same as this: www.protocol.com/songwriter-goes-after-streaming-royalties#toggle-gdprI think you’re right, though, Spotify takes 30% cut before the .004-.006 rate they pay.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2020 21:28:05 GMT -6
I dunno man . . . there are still a few redeeming graces, a scattered piece of pulp that is worth reading here and there. It was on Kurt Cobain's shirt on the front of Rolling Stone, man. After they asked the band to show up to the photo shoot wearing clothing with no writing on it. That's the punk and alt-90s attitude that I miss, like with Rage Against the Machine, too. Half those bands who weren’t MTV stalwarts are in the merchandise and tired comeback record game because they got screwed with their big records. Some of the funniest licensed merch has easily made them more than the records they are known for. One festival date easily will.
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