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Post by nick8801 on Sept 29, 2020 7:02:24 GMT -6
Hey guys....I've been doing a bunch of mixes for this local punk rock project. I've been keeping it all ITB for revision/time sake, but I started to get a little bummed the other day that I wasn't using any of my outboard. I'm not doing stems or individual tracks, just stereo mix. On my digital mix I was using the UAD Pultec to add a little bit of excitement in the lows and highs. I have very limited outboard, but I do have a DIYRE Pultec and of course, my Burl B2. I decided to match my settings as best as possible on the Diyre, and hit the Burl pretty hard to see if it all really made a few thousand dollar difference. Obviously this isn't scientific as the UAD Pultec is emulating an old tube unit and my DIYRE is solid state, but I think you can hear the general vibe of each mix. I kept my mastering settings in Ozone the same on both mixes so that there wouldn't be any variables there. I'd love to hear some opinions/thoughts if you have the time to listen. Should I keep my outboard?? Is it that much better? Is it even better at all? Could I match the analog mix-down in the box with a little tweaking/plugins? Here's a link to a Dropbox folder with both mixes. Thanks in advance for listening! www.dropbox.com/sh/r2byulh8vwckg50/AAC-c-FNuaDPO5k-OgrLy-ffa?dl=0 |
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Post by Calvin on Sept 29, 2020 7:26:31 GMT -6
I'm a huge fan of all things analog. If I had my druthers we'd all still be working on big consoles with tape machines, etc. I personally like to incorporate a fair amount of outboard. For this particular mix, however, I like the all-digital version better. Probably because that's how you mixed it in the first place, and then tried your experiment by strapping on some hardware after the fact. For me, hardware is most useful DURING the mix because it makes things easier (for me, at least). Adding a piece or two of hardware after you've already sorted out your mix is likely to change the final result into something you didn't initially intend. In this case, the "analog" mix sounds more congested, more narrow to me. But, only you know what you were going for, so tough for me to judge. I'd love to have a B2 at my disposal, but I'd incorporate it from the get-go. Anyway, some just some rambling comments from a nobody for your consideration.
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Post by svart on Sept 29, 2020 8:17:49 GMT -6
Personally, I've been using less and less outboard and have cared less and less about analog-vs-digital as I've gotten better at mixing.
turns out about half of my favorite producers/engineers are totally ITB now.
Anyway, to answer your questions about your mix..
I don't hear much difference at all. Certainly not enough difference to care. I wouldn't be able to pick out which one was digital and which one was analog if you hadn't labelled them. I think plugins have become so good overall that it's made the analog-vs-digital argument moot.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 29, 2020 9:01:12 GMT -6
I still like some hardware because I believe I do diffrent decisions. Special EQ on the console is more intuitive to me. Doing it all on a screen feels a bit unatural to me.
But a great mix is a great mix. Why should I care which tools the cook used?
I know I cared a long time about it but I believe the question is not the gear, its what makes a good workflow. And its hybrid for me.
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Post by nick8801 on Sept 29, 2020 9:05:05 GMT -6
I'm a huge fan of all things analog. If I had my druthers we'd all still be working on big consoles with tape machines, etc. I personally like to incorporate a fair amount of outboard. For this particular mix, however, I like the all-digital version better. Probably because that's how you mixed it in the first place, and then tried your experiment by strapping on some hardware after the fact. For me, hardware is most useful DURING the mix because it makes things easier (for me, at least). Adding a piece or two of hardware after you've already sorted out your mix is likely to change the final result into something you didn't initially intend. In this case, the "analog" mix sounds more congested, more narrow to me. But, only you know what you were going for, so tough for me to judge. I'd love to have a B2 at my disposal, but I'd incorporate it from the get-go. Anyway, some just some rambling comments from a nobody for your consideration. Totally agree with that.....thanks for taking the time to listen. |
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Post by nick8801 on Sept 29, 2020 9:06:50 GMT -6
Personally, I've been using less and less outboard and have cared less and less about analog-vs-digital as I've gotten better at mixing. turns out about half of my favorite producers/engineers are totally ITB now. Anyway, to answer your questions about your mix.. I don't hear much difference at all. Certainly not enough difference to care. I wouldn't be able to pick out which one was digital and which one was analog if you hadn't labelled them. I think plugins have become so good overall that it's made the analog-vs-digital argument moot. Thanks for listening svart! Yeah, I've sold a ton of outboard over the past few years for things like instruments and microphones....I think that I may not really need any of it anymore. I do have a Vermona spring reverb that I love using though. Can't seem to quite get there in the box yet on that one. |
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Post by nick8801 on Sept 29, 2020 9:08:23 GMT -6
I still like some hardware because I believe I do diffrent decisions. Special EQ on the console is more intuitive to me. Doing it all on a screen feels a bit unatural to me. But a great mix is a great mix. Why should I care which tools the cook used? I know I cared a long time about it but I believe the question is not the gear, its what makes a good workflow. And its hybrid for me. I do dig outboard on some stuff, but for my workflow, it's so much easier to use all digital. I always keep a few pieces around for that moment when they might get used, but those moments seem to come up less and less these days! |
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Post by christopher on Sept 29, 2020 9:54:20 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing, sounds great! The thing I kind of concluded is that the plugins may have a name and GUI that looks like a specific something, but they aren’t actually clones of whatever that thing is. So they are their own thing, even if they are supposed to a copy, they just aren’t,(they can still work in their own way). With that in mind, we can’t really trade them perfectly with outboard versions, they are different animals. I like your digital print mix it sounded good. Instead of bypassing that stuff, try keep your ITB mix and then add the outboard on top. That has been more useful in my world. And don’t worry about settings, just let ears be the guide. There’s a certain richness in the analog version that is sweet, but kind of falls apart compared to the digital one. Often just printing through equipment at flat settings and adjusting the trim and pushing will open things and give that richness without causing much degradation to the source.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 29, 2020 10:34:42 GMT -6
I still like some hardware because I believe I do diffrent decisions. Special EQ on the console is more intuitive to me. Doing it all on a screen feels a bit unatural to me. But a great mix is a great mix. Why should I care which tools the cook used? I know I cared a long time about it but I believe the question is not the gear, its what makes a good workflow. And its hybrid for me. I do dig outboard on some stuff, but for my workflow, it's so much easier to use all digital. I always keep a few pieces around for that moment when they might get used, but those moments seem to come up less and less these days!
If it works for you everything is fine. I think it all comes down to a nice song in the end.
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 29, 2020 10:44:52 GMT -6
Had time to listen now.
The digital one sounds good.
The analog one:
I like that it gets some wideness we assume with hardware, but it also gets some kind of distortion on top which I don't like.
And that's why I like best of both worlds.
Mixing with some hardware on the 2 bus cant be wrong.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 29, 2020 11:00:11 GMT -6
I love working on the console using real gear, but the current economic climate means do it fast and expect recalls for stupid changes. That means if my time is worth more than minimum wage it’s ITB.
Less and less of what I get is music based, right now long term thinking is more ITB centric hybrid. I really need to find the perfect control surface, summing more of a plug-in and 500 centric system .
I keep thinking it’s time to go UAD Apollo.
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Post by tkaitkai on Sept 29, 2020 13:27:16 GMT -6
They're close. The difference is there, but it's not anywhere near night-and-day, and it's something only audio nerds will ever care about. That said, it's the same tiny advantage that led me to some of my own ridiculous analog purchases. To describe what I'm hearing, the analog bounce sounds tighter, more controlled, richer, and more authoritative in the midrange. The digital version still sounds good, it's just that in comparison it sounds a little flabby and a tad more sterile, and less flattering in the high frequencies. But again, we're splitting hairs. It's a minute difference, and it's definitely NOT what's going to make or break your mixes. I can get a perfectly fine sound using just a mic and my Apollo Twin. But I'm happiest with the results from my high end stuff, which is why I keep it. I say keep the Burl, but that's because I'm crazy.  |
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 29, 2020 15:51:03 GMT -6
I love working on the console using real gear, but the current economic climate means do it fast and expect recalls for stupid changes. That means if my time is worth more than minimum wage it’s ITB. Less and less of what I get is music based, right now long term thinking is more ITB centric hybrid. I really need to find the perfect control surface, summing more of a plug-in and 500 centric system . I keep thinking it’s time to go UAD Apollo. I think its not breaking the show using a limited amount of hardware. I cant help myself but sometimes it makes a difference to my ears. A full 3D base most often is caused by one of my optos. I have no idea which factors are involved, phase issues, frequency shift's. I dont care, what I know that 8 of 10 guitar studets picked the mix with the mellower, subjectively broader felt low end. And yes I levelmatched as close as possible. Using plugs which do not give me the sonics whih I have in mind can be frustrating. But we are geting extremely close. Biggest surprise for me was the MC77 and the SPL Iron. Both sound extremly close to the hardware versions. Karzorg Iron is also a big surprise. But the plug in industry became big, too big.I get lost because every company claims to have the best technology. I dont have time to demo every single plug in. If ITB is the future for all I hope we see afordable controllers which follow the logic of an intuitive producing process... |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Sept 29, 2020 16:00:49 GMT -6
I love working on the console using real gear, but the current economic climate means do it fast and expect recalls for stupid changes. That means if my time is worth more than minimum wage it’s ITB. Less and less of what I get is music based, right now long term thinking is more ITB centric hybrid. I really need to find the perfect control surface, summing more of a plug-in and 500 centric system . I keep thinking it’s time to go UAD Apollo. I think its not breaking the show using a limited amount of hardware. I cant help myself but sometimes it makes a difference to my ears. A full 3D base most often is caused by one of my optos. I have no idea which factors are involved, phase issues, frequency shift's. I dont care, what I know that 8 of 10 guitar studets picked the mix with the mellower, subjectively broader felt low end. And yes I levelmatched as close as possible. Using plugs which do not give me the sonics whih I have in mind can be frustrating. But we are geting extremely close. Biggest surprise for me was the MC77 and the SPL Iron. Both sound extremly close to the hardware versions. Karzorg Iron is also a big surprise. But the plug in industry became big, too big.I get lost because every company claims to have the best technology. I dont have time to demo every single plug in. If ITB is the future for all I hope we see afordable controllers which follow the logic of an intuitive producing process... Part of the problem I have with plugins is that it seams like the goal is to win you over with discounts and packages so that you buy into the system not a particular product. Then let’s say you buy into UAD, somebody sends in a project with waves all over it. |
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Post by svart on Sept 29, 2020 16:11:15 GMT -6
I think its not breaking the show using a limited amount of hardware. I cant help myself but sometimes it makes a difference to my ears. A full 3D base most often is caused by one of my optos. I have no idea which factors are involved, phase issues, frequency shift's. I dont care, what I know that 8 of 10 guitar studets picked the mix with the mellower, subjectively broader felt low end. And yes I levelmatched as close as possible. Using plugs which do not give me the sonics whih I have in mind can be frustrating. But we are geting extremely close. Biggest surprise for me was the MC77 and the SPL Iron. Both sound extremly close to the hardware versions. Karzorg Iron is also a big surprise. But the plug in industry became big, too big.I get lost because every company claims to have the best technology. I dont have time to demo every single plug in. If ITB is the future for all I hope we see afordable controllers which follow the logic of an intuitive producing process... Part of the problem I have with plugins is that it seams like the goal is to win you over with discounts and packages so that you buy into the system not a particular product. Then let’s say you buy into UAD, somebody sends in a project with waves all over it. I always have them export one set of consolidated wav files with and one set without plugins rendered into them. I can usually find something that does what they want from their original plugins through comparison. |
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Post by Calvin on Sept 29, 2020 16:36:33 GMT -6
I'm a huge fan of all things analog. If I had my druthers we'd all still be working on big consoles with tape machines, etc. I personally like to incorporate a fair amount of outboard. For this particular mix, however, I like the all-digital version better. Probably because that's how you mixed it in the first place, and then tried your experiment by strapping on some hardware after the fact. For me, hardware is most useful DURING the mix because it makes things easier (for me, at least). Adding a piece or two of hardware after you've already sorted out your mix is likely to change the final result into something you didn't initially intend. In this case, the "analog" mix sounds more congested, more narrow to me. But, only you know what you were going for, so tough for me to judge. I'd love to have a B2 at my disposal, but I'd incorporate it from the get-go. Anyway, some just some rambling comments from a nobody for your consideration. Totally agree with that.....thanks for taking the time to listen. I hereby counsel you to ignore anything I wrote. I listened for a second time and now I prefer the analog version. This time I liked the extra bit of whatever was added. So, I'm all over the place hunting for small differences. Basically, just go with whatever sounds right to you. |
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 29, 2020 17:00:35 GMT -6
Part of the problem I have with plugins is that it seams like the goal is to win you over with discounts and packages so that you buy into the system not a particular product. Then let’s say you buy into UAD, somebody sends in a project with waves all over it. I always have them export one set of consolidated wav files with and one set without plugins rendered into them. I can usually find something that does what they want from their original plugins through comparison. I have no idea what happened, but it sounds bizarre to my ears that we need to find something that fits a sound. I understand the reason for mixing on a laptop. I just don't buy that it makes fun. To my ears, special when it comes to thr LF range. With plug ins its a constant fight for me. I would love to know how pros get this done ITB. Or maybe they kept four or five hardware tools for prints? If so than we have something in common, except that I am not a professional AE. |
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Post by Guitar on Sept 29, 2020 17:03:37 GMT -6
That mix is totally blasted, balls to the wall, interesting listen!
It's interesting also to see the perspective shift on digital vs analog rack gear. It seems like it's slowly becoming sort of accepted to do either thing, even for people with lots of experience.
I can speak from my own perspective, a friend today sort of referred to me as some sort of "big rack guy" or something like that, which I thought was kind of funny because I've been mixing 90% digital for the better part of a decade now.
Another thing I can say is that my spending has been heavily in favor of better plugins than better rack gear in the past 5 years or so.
Not going to argue too much about sonics. Although I do have some notion that I might use an analog mix bus on my next album, maybe the summing mixer. Haven't committed to it but I'm thinking about it.
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Post by Quint on Sept 29, 2020 17:07:03 GMT -6
I think its not breaking the show using a limited amount of hardware. I cant help myself but sometimes it makes a difference to my ears. A full 3D base most often is caused by one of my optos. I have no idea which factors are involved, phase issues, frequency shift's. I dont care, what I know that 8 of 10 guitar studets picked the mix with the mellower, subjectively broader felt low end. And yes I levelmatched as close as possible. Using plugs which do not give me the sonics whih I have in mind can be frustrating. But we are geting extremely close. Biggest surprise for me was the MC77 and the SPL Iron. Both sound extremly close to the hardware versions. Karzorg Iron is also a big surprise. But the plug in industry became big, too big.I get lost because every company claims to have the best technology. I dont have time to demo every single plug in. If ITB is the future for all I hope we see afordable controllers which follow the logic of an intuitive producing process... Part of the problem I have with plugins is that it seams like the goal is to win you over with discounts and packages so that you buy into the system not a particular product. Then let’s say you buy into UAD, somebody sends in a project with waves all over it. I'd tell that someone to either print the tracks with whatever plugins (that I don't also own) they have on them or, better yet, just send me the raw files. Maybe send me both the printed and raw files so that I have the printed files for context, but then can mix with the raw files. |
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Post by Quint on Sept 29, 2020 17:07:39 GMT -6
Part of the problem I have with plugins is that it seams like the goal is to win you over with discounts and packages so that you buy into the system not a particular product. Then let’s say you buy into UAD, somebody sends in a project with waves all over it. I always have them export one set of consolidated wav files with and one set without plugins rendered into them. I can usually find something that does what they want from their original plugins through comparison. Beat me to it. Ditto. |
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 29, 2020 19:16:11 GMT -6
] Another thing I can say is that my spending has been heavily in favor of better plugins than better rack gear in the past 5 years or so. Not going to argue too much about sonics. Although I do have some notion that I might use an analog mix bus on my next album, maybe the summing mixer. Haven't committed to it but I'm thinking about it. Music is always subjective. If the modern plug ins could proof, they sound to 100% like the real deal I would keep my hardware for the reason that the workflow feels saver to me... |
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Post by rowmat on Sept 29, 2020 19:32:15 GMT -6
Although we ran a hybrid setup with an analog console and a bunch of outboard I always felt the overall icing on the cake during the mix was provided by the outboard Pultec style EQ's and hardware compressor across the mixbus.
I could live with an ITB mix provided the final mix went through that hardware at the end as I could never find the sound I wanted with any ITB mixbus Pultec style plugin EQ.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2020 0:44:41 GMT -6
The analog has hair, depth, and vibe. The digital is a bit sterile and sounds like it needs a little push somewhere.
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Post by bricejchandler on Sept 30, 2020 2:35:22 GMT -6
The analog has hair, depth, and vibe. The digital is a bit sterile and sounds like it needs a little push somewhere. I agree. The difference is not subtle. I could see somebody liking the digital mix better because the vocal has more of it's own space and is a bit clearer but for my tastes, I'll take the analog version any day of the week, it's sounds much more rock n roll. Everything is glued together and the guitars that drive the song have way richer mids. It's more agressive and smoother at the same time. I would definitely not get rid of your outboard! |
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Post by craigmorris74 on Sept 30, 2020 6:25:57 GMT -6
The analog file is also louder, according to my measurements. When levels are adjusted, thinks get more interesting.
Would also be interesting to hear the ITB ran though the Burl.
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