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Post by jsteiger on Sept 1, 2020 16:13:44 GMT -6
There are some others that could have been in on this . . . but this was certainly extremely helpful, and I have to wait and see how production units of Dave Wheeler/Eric Heiserman's collaboration turn out! True but since the main goal was to give Dave a solid benchmark, I think mission accomplished! PS, I still can't believe she's mine
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 1, 2020 16:14:45 GMT -6
Well then, after I picked my jaw up off my chest, I listened again a couple more times. Blackbird. Well, I have heard this mic before and it sounds exactly as I remember. Nearly perfect Dolly. Yeah, this might be the most perfect mic ever made. Upton. Extremely close to both the above but a lot darker. I was surprised at how much darker it was than expected. But amazingly smooth!! Wavey. Honestly, made my ears pop and eyes bug out, to double-check which I was listening to. Korby. Well, I wouldn't buy it. It is a nice mic, but doesn't really work like a 251. JMHO AA. Was this microphone broken? Warm. Not as complete a disaster as I was expecting, maybe even usable in cardioid. There are some others that could have been in on this . . . but this was certainly extremely helpful, and I have to wait and see how production units of Dave Wheeler/Eric Heiserman's collaboration turn out! Maybe I need to get my ears checked. Didn’t hear the Upton as darker than Dolly.
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Post by Ward on Sept 1, 2020 16:20:59 GMT -6
Well then, after I picked my jaw up off my chest, I listened again a couple more times. Blackbird. Well, I have heard this mic before and it sounds exactly as I remember. Nearly perfect Dolly. Yeah, this might be the most perfect mic ever made. Upton. Extremely close to both the above but a lot darker. I was surprised at how much darker it was than expected. But amazingly smooth!! Wavey. Honestly, made my ears pop and eyes bug out, to double-check which I was listening to. Korby. Well, I wouldn't buy it. It is a nice mic, but doesn't really work like a 251. JMHO AA. Was this microphone broken? Warm. Not as complete a disaster as I was expecting, maybe even usable in cardioid. There are some others that could have been in on this . . . but this was certainly extremely helpful, and I have to wait and see how production units of Dave Wheeler/Eric Heiserman's collaboration turn out! Maybe I need to get my ears checked. Didn’t hear the Upton as darker than Dolly. We all do from time to time. The occasional syringing by an ENT is always a good thing, especially in our profession. I learned to yawn frequently in this racket, and find it keeps the ears open to hear extended top-end. Because they all close up periodically. And of course, we all hear differently. I say that respectfully.
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Post by hadaja on Sept 1, 2020 17:08:45 GMT -6
Trying not to read between the lines but does that mean the “HZ 251” is going to be priced around the same price of the Upton?
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Post by Ward on Sept 1, 2020 18:42:43 GMT -6
Trying not to read between the lines but does that mean the “HZ 251” is going to be priced around the same price of the Upton? you had better ask the masters that directly. I expect it to be a little pricier. It is a 1:1 accurate recreation!
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 1, 2020 19:16:06 GMT -6
Trying not to read between the lines but does that mean the “HZ 251” is going to be priced around the same price of the Upton? No. More.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Sept 1, 2020 21:33:49 GMT -6
Okay, I just downloaded them. I've not read any previous comments or discussion.
Jumping in now. I shall report back.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 1, 2020 21:38:56 GMT -6
I can't hear the files because I don't have any of this Zip programs the site shows, and I've had issues before with malware when downloading things like that from a company I'm unfamiliar with. I don't have Google Drive either.
Is there another way I can hear these?
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 1, 2020 21:54:18 GMT -6
I can't hear the files because I don't have any of this Zip programs the site shows, and I've had issues before with malware when downloading things like that from a company I'm unfamiliar with. I don't have Google Drive either. Is there another way I can hear these? Zip is a compression format, not a company. You would be downloading my session from my Google drive. I can attest there’s no malware. It’s a pro tools session, though, so if you don’t have PT... Actually, here are wav files if you want to just put them all in your own daw. Might be a little confusing though. www.dropbox.com/sh/twhsduqdw0q0a1f/AADOZ9Zp5Q0LZApziWKF8EjPa?dl=0
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wave
Full Member
Posts: 46
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Post by wave on Sept 1, 2020 21:54:46 GMT -6
all stock capsules the mics came with...actually, I think wave might have mentioned he tweaked the Korby? Yes, I did tweak the Korby mic from its "stock" config. Now I put the quotes there as I don't have any service info on the Korby Convertible system. the config it was in had a .22μF output cap and I raised it to a 1μF PIO cap. The capsule in the Korby 251 head was not the original Tracey CK12 but a newer Shannon Rhoades 251 capsule that he had been perfecting over the past couple years. Dolly and Kacey had vintage (probably shallow dish) CK12s with the red conformal around the edges and mine has a custom Heiserman Hk12 - custom because I sputtered and skinned it. Eric and I have been experimenting with different depositions on the skins for our newer units as well as different tuning...the CK12 is a tricky one. Interesting fact - both the Dolly and Kacey vintage units have had their output caps swapped from the original 3μF wet tantalum to 1μF PP films. I used a 2μF NOS PIO Astron in mine. The Kacey mic's capsule was reskinned by Doug Walker back in 2012 with 2.5μm Mylar (nickel and gold deposition). I think that adds to it's lift from 2.5kHz up. -Dave
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Post by bluegrassdan on Sept 1, 2020 22:19:36 GMT -6
Here are my thoughts. Again, I haven't read any comments from above, and I only saw a few pics on Facebook from the setup.
Thanks to all involved in putting this together. It represents all of the best from our community and an eagerness to strive for perfection. Kudos!
Now, with that being said, let me put on my “professor” hat and get serious.
There are flaws in this test. The room is too heavily influencing the results. Standing waves, room resonances, and early reflections abound. It would have been better with more absorption to kill that. The female vocalist is inconsistent in terms of delivery, changing tonal center, changing vowel placement and timbre, and proximity to the mics. The male vocalist is more consistent. The gain matching is all over the place.
Listening through those imperfections, and after matching the RMS levels myself, here are my observations of the mics in order of my own preference.
Dolly: My favorite and most “expensive” sounding. Seamless transition between frequency areas. Handles loud passages with ease. Nice harmonic richness in the lows. It gets out of the way and allows me to experience the music.
Blackbird: A very high-quality sound. A bit “reedier” in the high-mids. A bit brighter with more sibilance than Dolly. Less rich in the lows. I wonder if this mic is all original or not?
Upton: This one continues from the direction of the Blackbird. Even more “reedy” and much more sibilance that grows almost to offensive on the female vocal. This one is starting to sound like a singer singing into a microphone, as opposed to the Dolly.
Wheeler: Sounds “pinched” in the upper mids and highs, as if those frequencies are detached from the lower frequencies. At the same time, this mic is darker and lacks the 251 “air.” Sounds like it has a de-esser.
Korby: Sounds less robust in the lows and hurts my ears in the high mids. Like if a 251 and an SM58 had a baby.
Warm: Is this supposed to be a microphone?
Advanced: I have a $29 plastic computer mic that sounds better.
Alright everyone. There it is. I hope not to hurt any feelings, but I must be honest. Thanks again for putting this demonstration together and posting it for everyone.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 1, 2020 22:32:42 GMT -6
It wasn’t really that serious...we put a couple of mics up and recorded. I will measure singer to mic distance when I get paid for doing a mic shootout lol. That’s the reason I said comparison. Probably shouldn’t have the word shootout in it. It’s also a little unfair to judge the Wheeler/Heiserman proto because it’s a proto...and the point of the comparison was to get data from some vintage mics...then we threw in the Upton and a couple others. Dave will nail it, I’m sure.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 1, 2020 22:36:58 GMT -6
Btw - the sibilance thing is the giveaway on my Upton. The two vintage mics handle it like...vintage mics. That being said - I preferred my Upton over the BB in Cardioid. Now - I’d rather have a vintage 251 - don’t get me wrong...but I just personally prefer the lighter top. But Dan’s ranking is pretty much the similar to my opinion.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 1, 2020 22:41:33 GMT -6
Here’s the magic question - why do vintage mics handle sibilance better?
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Post by bluegrassdan on Sept 1, 2020 22:48:17 GMT -6
Here’s the magic question - why do vintage mics handle sibilance better? The capsules. I can only speculate that back in the 1950s those companies had great financial resources, teams of scientists, and fewer regulations in terms of the chemicals they could incorperate.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Sept 1, 2020 22:50:17 GMT -6
And remember that not all vintage mics have stood the test of time. There are plenty of uninspiring vintage things out there.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 1, 2020 22:51:20 GMT -6
Here’s the magic question - why do vintage mics handle sibilance better? The capsules. I can only speculate that back in the 1950s those companies had great financial resources, teams of scientists, and fewer regulations in terms of the chemicals they could incorperate. I wonder whether the composition of the metal in the transformers has a bit to do with it too? Cant have the same thing because of environmental laws.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 1, 2020 22:52:54 GMT -6
I guess even capacitors can contribute too.
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Post by Ward on Sept 2, 2020 5:08:53 GMT -6
Dolly: My favorite and most “expensive” sounding. Seamless transition between frequency areas. Handles loud passages with ease. Nice harmonic richness in the lows. It gets out of the way and allows me to experience the music. Blackbird: A very high-quality sound. A bit “reedier” in the high-mids. A bit brighter with more sibilance than Dolly. Less rich in the lows. I wonder if this mic is all original or not? Upton: This one continues from the direction of the Blackbird. Even more “reedy” and much more sibilance that grows almost to offensive on the female vocal. This one is starting to sound like a singer singing into a microphone, as opposed to the Dolly. Wheeler: Sounds “pinched” in the upper mids and highs, as if those frequencies are detached from the lower frequencies. At the same time, this mic is darker and lacks the 251 “air.” Sounds like it has a de-esser. Korby: Sounds less robust in the lows and hurts my ears in the high mids. Like if a 251 and an SM58 had a baby. Warm: Is this supposed to be a microphone? Advanced: I have a $29 plastic computer mic that sounds better. Alright everyone. There it is. I hope not to hurt any feelings, but I must be honest. Thanks again for putting this demonstration together and posting it for everyone. It's quite something how most of us can hear Dolly as a perfect microphone. jsteiger, did Reba McIntire use this one on 'If You See Him'? As for your other cool observations, it doesn't surprise me that various amazing microphones can tickle our ears in different ways! It's going to be quite interesting to hear wave's refinements to his 251!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 2, 2020 8:44:51 GMT -6
This was great, thanks John, thanks Wave! I enjoy comparisons and having done a few myself, I can tell you it's almost impossible to do perfectly and scientifically. I do feel you can get a great general idea of mics this way though. I've bought a few mics based on comparison files and they were exactly as I'd heard them. I found "Dolly" best on the female voice and "Kacey" best on the male voice. All the other mics have some minor aspect that diminishes them slightly when compared to the vintage models.
Most of us can hear the pinch that cheaper capsules often have, but one factor doesn't quite get enough attention I think, perhaps because it's subtle and takes some experience to recognize. Every good mic I've ever tried has what might call its own space. The pickup area differs on every one. Some sound too upfront, some too wide, (I had a Bock mic that cardioid sounded more like omni, the pickup area was so wide). Some feel flatter and you hear more of the room than you want, etc. etc.
The great mics somehow remain perfectly focused yet as big as you'd like it to be. The U67 is the champ at being big, yet focused. Dolly and Kacey had that difficult balance down perfectly. I happened to be a a big box TV store this week. All the high end TV's had a slightly different size of text and camera position. A newscaster seemed closer on some, further away on others, text was a different size, one seemed perfect, the SONY. I felt like I was viewing it live, it was the actual natural amount of "zoom" placement.
That's what I look for in mics, and transparency after that, then how it handles a hard hit.
My Soyuz 0-19 is perfect. It's FET, so I wanted a tube mic to compliment it, but many others fell short. The Blackspade UM-17R positioning aspect (size) was great, but I'm not so compatible with M49 style mics, the Chandler REDD was exceptional, it did what the vintage 67's and 47's do, plus it still sounded right from quite a distance. Perhaps it might need a little high frequency roll off for some on an EQ. My Stam SA67 is still the new kid on my block, I've only had less than an hour or two with it so far, but the balance seems right.
I like to do what I call "The Millionaires" test. Pick some amount of money that all your financial considerations are gone. For each of us it's different, but there is a number where money concerns will vanish. Now... make your choice regarding gear. It simplifies and clarifies where you're really at.
With no cash restriction, I'd search out a vintage mic and pay the toll to have it, just so I feel I'm not missing something when I record vocals. In this case, I'd buy the BB and be happy.
Where it gets tricky is searching out mics that get you as close as you can afford to get. In this case the Warm is embarrassing, yet it is compatible with a buddy of mine after he did the Signal Art mod, and it's fantastic for him, and he did his recent album with it. The others all had minor issues, flatness, brittleness, darkness, etc, but I could happily use most of them.
Comparisons don't need to be too technical, if you have good ears, you can get a fair idea of what they sound like. This was a fantastic event, and I'm grateful to have a chance to hear these legendary mics!
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Post by Ward on Sept 2, 2020 8:50:14 GMT -6
SNIP Dolly and Kacey had that difficult balance down perfectly. SNIP I kinda wonder if lordalvin might borrow/rent @jstieger's Dolly for the next Kacey Musgraves' record. Everything about Kacey is amazing, especially that voice. OMG, that voice . . . just melts me.
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Post by sozocaps on Sept 2, 2020 10:03:56 GMT -6
Well then, after I picked my jaw up off my chest, I listened again a couple more times. Blackbird. Well, I have heard this mic before and it sounds exactly as I remember. Nearly perfect Dolly. Yeah, this might be the most perfect mic ever made. Upton. Extremely close to both the above but a lot darker. I was surprised at how much darker it was than expected. But amazingly smooth!! Wavey. Honestly, made my ears pop and eyes bug out, to double-check which I was listening to. Korby. Well, I wouldn't buy it. It is a nice mic, but doesn't really work like a 251. JMHO AA. Was this microphone broken? Warm. Not as complete a disaster as I was expecting, maybe even usable in cardioid. There are some others that could have been in on this . . . but this was certainly extremely helpful, and I have to wait and see how production units of Dave Wheeler/Eric Heiserman's collaboration turn out! Maybe I need to get my ears checked. Didn’t hear the Upton as darker than Dolly. This was my though... I went back and checked it last night. I think its the lack of volume matching
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Post by sozocaps on Sept 2, 2020 10:07:48 GMT -6
Btw - the sibilance thing is the giveaway on my Upton. The two vintage mics handle it like...vintage mics. That being said - I preferred my Upton over the BB in Cardioid. Now - I’d rather have a vintage 251 - don’t get me wrong...but I just personally prefer the lighter top. But Dan’s ranking is pretty much the similar to my opinion. Remember my capacitor trick ... It may remove that energy which in my strong opinion is not just coming from the capsule but also the electronics. None the less I still would probably take this over the blackbird especially for the price difference !
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Sept 14, 2020 16:44:44 GMT -6
Well then, after I picked my jaw up off my chest, I listened again a couple more times. Blackbird. Well, I have heard this mic before and it sounds exactly as I remember. Nearly perfect Dolly. Yeah, this might be the most perfect mic ever made. Upton. Extremely close to both the above but a lot darker. I was surprised at how much darker it was than expected. But amazingly smooth!! Wavey. Honestly, made my ears pop and eyes bug out, to double-check which I was listening to. Korby. Well, I wouldn't buy it. It is a nice mic, but doesn't really work like a 251. JMHO AA. Was this microphone broken? Warm. Not as complete a disaster as I was expecting, maybe even usable in cardioid. There are some others that could have been in on this . . . but this was certainly extremely helpful, and I have to wait and see how production units of Dave Wheeler/Eric Heiserman's collaboration turn out! Maybe I need to get my ears checked. Didn’t hear the Upton as darker than Dolly. I wouldn't say you need to get them checked. Your mixes are usually on the brighter side which is a good thing. I'm convinced we all hear things slightly differently. Any of the mics that were in that shootout are more than usable I think. One stands out on one voice, one on another. But any of them can make a record.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Sept 14, 2020 16:52:30 GMT -6
SNIP Dolly and Kacey had that difficult balance down perfectly. SNIP I kinda wonder if lordalvin might borrow/rent @jstieger's Dolly for the next Kacey Musgraves' record. Everything about Kacey is amazing, especially that voice. OMG, that voice . . . just melts me. There's a few things besides Kacey's voice that melts me. She sure aint hard to look at. But she can sang, too.
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