|
|
Post by cowboycoalminer on Apr 4, 2014 11:52:32 GMT -6
So I've had this notion for quite some time about the possibilities of buying a baby grand for my studio. The thing is, I'd like to explore the new piano midi systems that can be installed on any piano so that I can have players from anywhere send me midi files, plug them in and record the piano live here at my place. In theory, this almost seems too good to be true but the capabilities are in place and I know someone has to be doing this somewhere. I suck at piano so this would be perfect for me  |
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Apr 4, 2014 12:53:40 GMT -6
Couple thoughts...MIDI grands are next to useless for the purpose you're describing. They're good FOR recording MIDI from a better feeling instrument and using it for layering. The problem is the same as with ANY MIDI piano--the one the player played to will always sound best, even if it's not the best sounding with the same player playing it. The only exception would be when the piano sample is just horribly bad...and the other is well recorded...but, good piano samples are CHEAP now, so I can't see it being a for profit thing. I know someone in town who intended to do that--if you want I might be able to hook you up with him. Last I heard, that aspect wasn't making him much money.
I bought a 52" Yamaha "upright grand" (or "studio grand"). I wasn't buying for recording, but simply for sitting and playing and writing--with an eye on not buying on that sounded so bad I couldn't record it if I wanted to...anyway--it's a bitch to record, but it sounds better than most baby grands I played just playing it. any "laid down" piano has the advantage for recording of the strings not crossing--but, the price you pay is they usually sound worse just sitting and playing them, IME.
If I end up moving out of state, which is on the table, I might be selling the piano...sort of a third thought...I simply don't play enough to justify the expense of moving it and continuing to tune it a couple time a year. Not a for sure thing...but...
In general, a real piano is simply a different instrument. It's not better or worse than good samples--it's different. In fact, when I write a part on the digital, it doesn't translate well to the real guy--and visa versa. Different voicings ring differently...the differing dynamics play into the part arrangement....you know to loop it back to my first point. It is, however, really nice to sit and write at--I bought it because I realized that in my life I've rarely written on digital pianos. I just don't. If I have access to a real one, I write tunes on the piano...if I don't, anything you've heard was simply "arranged for piano" after being conceived (likely) on guitar.
|
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Apr 4, 2014 16:53:34 GMT -6
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2014 17:14:24 GMT -6
I bought Ivory II's American Concert D and Italian Grand II. Couldn't be happier! Find a fully weighted controller that you're happy with and enjoy no longer thinking about if you should buy a piano or not!
|
|
|
|
Post by RicFoxx on Apr 4, 2014 17:22:19 GMT -6
Im no piano or keys player by any means but I do have an upright piano and I love the feel of playing a real piano and it's recorded sound when done right...just seems to have some soul to it. Might just be my shortcomings with doing the midi thing as it always sounds good but soulless...meh!
It would be cool to see if someone has real experience with the midi add-on.
Now that I think about this...it's got to be too good to be true...like hover bikes!
|
|
|
|
Post by cowboycoalminer on Apr 5, 2014 7:05:50 GMT -6
I know someone in town who intended to do that--if you want I might be able to hook you up with him. Last I heard, that aspect wasn't making him much money. I figured there would be someone there in town who did this. I'd like to touch base with him if you could arrange it. |
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Apr 5, 2014 11:07:59 GMT -6
I bought Ivory II's American Concert D and Italian Grand II. Couldn't be happier! Find a fully weighted controller that you're happy with and enjoy no longer thinking about if you should buy a piano or not! If chuck says this is good, i believe him, he has big ears jazzboy style, i'll be checking these out 8) |
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Apr 5, 2014 12:23:56 GMT -6
I know someone in town who intended to do that--if you want I might be able to hook you up with him. Last I heard, that aspect wasn't making him much money. I figured there would be someone there in town who did this. I'd like to touch base with him if you could arrange it. Friend of a friend...I dropped a line for contact info. |
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Apr 5, 2014 12:29:35 GMT -6
I bought Ivory II's American Concert D and Italian Grand II. Couldn't be happier! Find a fully weighted controller that you're happy with and enjoy no longer thinking about if you should buy a piano or not! If chuck says this is good, i believe him, he has big ears jazzboy style, i'll be checking these out 8) Ivory II is about the most realistic I've ever heard..... Honestly I just don't see the logic in buying a grand piano when things like Ivory exist... not to say I don't think Cowboy's idea is cool, but with Ivory, you get some really really convincing sounds. And pianos that probably cost more than my house. |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Apr 5, 2014 13:50:34 GMT -6
I tend to use Alicia's Keys more than Ivory II...and I have both. Also have Addictive Keys - I really like it. Great upright...you can mic these however you want, e.g. just room mics...
|
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Apr 5, 2014 16:14:53 GMT -6
Alicia's Keys SOUNDS wonderful. If I had to play it as my main piano, I'd shoot myself in the fucking arm. Scarbee's stuff and mushy ass Kontakt in general is the reason I bought a Kronos. I couldn't believe how much WORSE it was on OSX than Windows. I figured that was just one of those things where they must be Mac focused and the PC had issues....nope--actually MORE mushy on OSX. I'm telling you--gigastudio was the f'n BOMB. Kernel mode driver actually turned your cheap Windows PC into the most powerful sampler in the world...AND....hardware feeling latencies. 15 damn years ago. I remember how laughable Kontakt was when it came out. Another example of the better format not mattering as much as the noob crowd wanting it to plug into their DAW. So, we went from needing a $4k sampler that kinda sucked....to a $700 software+PC...but, that wasn't enough....we needed a $300 plug in that sucked worse than all of the above. Because no one PLAYS Kontakt. At least no one who PLAYS...it's a MIDI programmer's dream...a sound developer's WET dream...and a keyboard player's worst nightmare. EXS24 still plays Gigastreaming libs better 15 years in--point being, it wasn't even the SECOND best.... Suffice to say--you want something with it's own engine. I know VSL has some huge thing. That's what I'd look at--since I already own VIPro2 for the strings...but...Ivory is fine, too, if it doesn't have the sonic charm of AK--at least it doesn't invert the velocity based latency--so, on a real piano, the harder you hit a key, the faster the hammer gets there, right? On AK, particularly as you go higher in register, the harder you hit it, the LONGER it takes to get there. It took me a while to figure out why it was fine sometimes, and sometimes it was unplayably maddening--that's why. If I owned the full version of Kontakt, and HAD to use digital, I might spend the time seeing if I can get under the hood and edit that away. #itwasntalwaysthisway #butnoonecares #oldguyout  |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Apr 5, 2014 16:53:02 GMT -6
Damn...apparently you play more notes than me...
|
|
|
|
Post by henge on Apr 5, 2014 17:15:08 GMT -6
Imperfect Samples Steinway and Upright sound real nice. Like it better than Ivory 1.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2014 22:52:23 GMT -6
Alicia's Keys has intonation and phasing issues. However, American Concert D has some notes that were recorded a little too hot and are distorted around the C6 land (C4= middle C)
|
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Apr 6, 2014 9:05:08 GMT -6
Because its not digitally tuned. In fact, this is one of a million examples of how pitch IS art. I've had different people tune MY piano...and have settled to where I have only one uh tune it....because mine and his sense of pitch are kindred, I guess.
Also, if you ever want to be able to tell whether a recording it real or sampled, put a phase analyzer on it. ALL piano recordings have complex phase interplay. If it doesn't, it's because it was recorded one note at a time and meticulously edited...like, you know--is how sample makers have worked for decades.
No, Scarbee is a genius that way. In fact, I know that his not editing to the transient like most (including Ivory) do...is to make it feel more like a piano, which has a latency if you will between pressing a key and the hammer hitting a string. Most do this with a velocity based attack envelope--but, the attack of the hammer does change much-it's literally speed. IMO, he just missed that it also travels faster the harder you hit. I need to remember my logon for NI's site and see if there's a library update...it's obviously a mistake in editing the velocity layers.
Herbie--shoot me your email, I got contact info for you for the guy with the MIDI Grand. I think I have in some archives, but....
|
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Apr 6, 2014 15:03:23 GMT -6
The only Craigslist steal I've ever gotten was for my baby grand. It's a 1932 Cable Nelson. It's not that great sounding and has a thunky G1...probably just needs to be re-strung...but I got it for $500 freaking dollars. We couldn't have bought a chair for that space for that price. Attachment Deleted |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 0:51:13 GMT -6
^ awesome!
Popmann, i don't agree with anything you said about Alicia's keys. it sticks out in the mix in a bad way on everything I've used it on. I don't have that problem with American Concert D for Ivory II, which is why I stopped using Alicia's Keys. Scarbee's Rhodes library is great, tho.
|
|
|
|
Post by dandeurloo on Apr 7, 2014 7:42:42 GMT -6
I haven't found a software piano that sounds good. The all have nasty ringing in multiple octaves. They are a pain to work with and make sound sweet. The NI ones are all awful. Software pianos are one of the things they are the farthest from nailing down still in the plugin world. The instrument is just to complicated to get correct yet.
That being said, I use them all the time. I use to have a piano and it was also a pain. Trying to keep it in tune cost more money then it was worth. Our weather changes so much here that it was brutal trying to keep it usable. Hopefully soon someone will come out with a really great sounding piano without all the crazy artifacts.
|
|
|
|
Post by cowboycoalminer on Apr 7, 2014 8:55:02 GMT -6
I think plain old Easy Keys Grand sounds about as good as any in a mix. But Dan is certainly right. No software piano yet sounds close to miking a real piano IMO. Which is why I started the thread. I want to record live piano here without being tethered to hiring musicians in the area. Wishful thinking I know.
|
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Apr 7, 2014 10:17:53 GMT -6
I haven't found a software piano that sounds good. The all have nasty ringing in multiple octaves. They are a pain to work with and make sound sweet. The NI ones are all awful. Software pianos are one of the things they are the farthest from nailing down still in the plugin world. The instrument is just to complicated to get correct yet. That being said, I use them all the time. I use to have a piano and it was also a pain. Trying to keep it in tune cost more money then it was worth. Our weather changes so much here that it was brutal trying to keep it usable. Hopefully soon someone will come out with a really great sounding piano without all the crazy artifacts. Yeah keeping this one in tune by those windows is nearly impossible. And I'm not gonna spend $95 every two weeks. |
|
|
|
Post by dandeurloo on Apr 7, 2014 12:24:42 GMT -6
I think plain old Easy Keys Grand sounds about as good as any in a mix. But Dan is certainly right. No software piano yet sounds close to miking a real piano IMO. Which is why I started the thread. I want to record live piano here without being tethered to hiring musicians in the area. Wishful thinking I know. I have an old Roland 700 or something like that, I can look at what model it is. Last time I used that, I remember not loving the piano but it was better then most software. I think it had to do with running it through some analog gear when tracking and things like that. I guess it was one step closer to the real thing. Tuning a piano is expensive to keep up. Mine always seemed out of tune when I wanted to use it. So, I would have to wait a few days before it could be tuned, then pay 100 bucks each time.  I think if I was really hung up on it I would demo a Nord and see what you think of the piano in it. They have a few other sounds that are pretty good. |
|
|
|
Post by nico on Apr 7, 2014 13:53:34 GMT -6
So I've had this notion for quite some time about the possibilities of buying a baby grand for my studio. The thing is, I'd like to explore the new piano midi systems that can be installed on any piano so that I can have players from anywhere send me midi files, plug them in and record the piano live here at my place. In theory, this almost seems too good to be true but the capabilities are in place and I know someone has to be doing this somewhere. I suck at piano so this would be perfect for me Hi Cowboycoalminer, the pianotuner here installs these midi systems regularly, they are not cheap ( can ask for a figure if you want ). Depends on what you want to do with it : trigger a whole pianoconcerto in solo....or use basic piano rythm/backing tracks for pop/whatever music you want? For the first: forget about it. The second is, sigh, a viable option these days.... the thing is, with the web and availability of decent players ( unless you live in the middle of nowhere ) the performance you will get from a recording a pianoplayer at your place, will open up the possibility for the best result possible and a nice collaboration/exchange might happen ( unless you don't want people around ) or for even less money: you could learn piano ( "triads", "inversions", "arpeggio" of said triads will get you playing a basic chord structure in no time, that may sound ok, count 1 hour a day for 1-2 month might get you somewhere if you already know the basics of scales, rythm, harmony, notation ) that midi control thing for acoustic pianos is used mostly for people who need to churn out quantities of tracks, for ads, picture etc... and have no clue about piano nor the time or willingness to learn, yet maintain control over the quality of the recorded sound vs using VI's good luck with it! regards Nico |
|
|
|
Post by lolo on Apr 7, 2014 16:47:10 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Apr 7, 2014 18:12:15 GMT -6
I would just buy this. When I watched this DVD, (audio on the big speakers) all the little ringy notes...the sustain length of low velocities...no idea what they used. I mean, she's playing a Clavinova on stage...if that's the actual recorded sound, TOO...wow...me wants.
That whole DVD is her and that piano...which typically would REQUIRE a real piano for me...but, I was constantly--if I didn't SEE the thing, I would've assumed it was real. They, too, did a nice job at leaving enough flaws to sound real.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2014 19:49:34 GMT -6
that is a great sounding piano, for sure. I sent her a message on facebook. If she replies, i'll relay the answer here.
|
|
