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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 8, 2020 12:03:26 GMT -6
Some of you may have read my prior threads about searching for new monitors. I tried a pair of JBL 705's, they didn't work for my room and I discovered that I like listening to monitors that are more mid forward. So I've been searching. I started thinking of Amphions, and also ATC's and I read a long thread in which our own John K went back and forth between those two options. Then I also started thinking about people who still mix on NS-10's. So I decided to buy an amp and found an Adcom 545 on ebay for a good price. I figured it would allow me the chance to audition different passive monitors.
My plan was to try all of the above (NS-10's, ATC scm12's, Amphion One15's), but I kept reading about NHT monitors. Joe Barresi and Sylvia Massey both use (or have used) NHT's and I really like their productions. I simultaneously was thinking about how I reference every mix in my living room, on an old pair of Technic speakers that I got when I was like 15 years old. I know them so well and thought, why not recreate that experience (referencing on home stereo/hifi speakers) in my studio. So I bought a pair of NHT SuperOne's for cheap and just hooked them up to the Adcom last night.
My first impressions:
They're very clear and unhyped. They lack some lower bass extension but they're small speakers and I wouldn't expect them to reach very low (which is just fine by me). The center image is very good but the sweet spot is small and the stereo image gets thrown off easily when you move your head. I think this is partially due to their positioning in my room. They're setup right next to my Adam A7's, but just behind them a tad, so that their baffles are a little recessed behind the Adam's, I think that may be throwing off the dispersion from the tweeters. I'll have to spend more time with placement. The sides of the stereo image are great too but it's almost like mixes become more LCR. Like I can hear the center and sides really good but in between there is a "hole" so to speak. There's a lot of detail in the 500hz range and its easier to get that area right than on my A7's. I was able to hear the ringing in a kick drum at 124hz, and fix it, that was NOT easily heard on my A7s.
I did a quick mix on them last night, using both the A7's and NHT's. When I got the sound sounding good on both of them I took a listen on my usual references and I was pleasantly surprised. The mix wasn't perfect but it translated pretty damn good. The balance between all instruments was very good. There were a few offending freq in the upper mids in the cymbals that bothered me but I feel that with a little more time I could easily mix on this setup. The two sets of speakers complement each other well.
These are just my first impressions, after spending only 1.5 hr's on them, so things may change. But so far I'm very happy and have spent very little money on this setup.
Do any of you guys mix or reference on hifi speakers? I'm wondering what other's experience is with NHT's or other inexpensive bookshelf speakers.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 8, 2020 15:47:51 GMT -6
Don’t nhts have seas speakers and tweeters ?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 8, 2020 15:53:14 GMT -6
When I'm almost done with a mix, I try it on my hi-fi. THAT is when I know what's right and what isn't. I have a Peachtree Audio integrated am with Sonus Faber Toys speakers and a REL subwoofer. It's the only sub that uses a small speaker wire that piggybacks on top of your regular speaker outs, so the bass is in time. It's called an ambience retrieval system by them. It works. 2 D becomes 3 D when you turn it on.
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 8, 2020 16:11:41 GMT -6
When I'm almost done with a mix, I try it on my hi-fi. THAT is when I know what's right and what isn't. I have a Peachtree Audio integrated am with Songs Faber Toys speakers and a REL subwoofer. It's the only sub that uses a small speaker wire that piggybacks on top of your regular speaker outs, so the bass is in time. It's call an ambience retrieval system by them. It works. 2 DF becomes 3 D when you turn it on. Man, everything you said is over my head lol, but I'll take it to mean you check your mixes a bad ass hi-fi setup!
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 8, 2020 16:12:10 GMT -6
Don’t nhts have seas speakers and tweeters ? Is that good? I not familiar with woofer/tweeter manufacturers.
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 8, 2020 16:26:10 GMT -6
One of the best, I have forgotten the model but there was a set of nht, that had excellent seas drivers. They are currently featured in amphions.
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Post by markfouxman on Aug 8, 2020 16:40:50 GMT -6
One of the best, I have forgotten the model but there was a set of nht, that had excellent seas drivers. They are currently featured in amphions. Perhaps you refer to XdS--some of the finest speakers ever made. The drivers are expensive magnesium mid/woofer, and Al cone Tweeter from Seas. Originally, made to work with DSP crossovers (at the time were very expensive--entire set was something like $7k), but I use them with custom passive crossovers. The voicing, details and transparency is amazing, rivaling my Quad ESL63 and Apogee line source true ribbons. Kudos to the guys who engineered them--they knew exactly what they are doing--great respect! Too bad the company went out of business... Best, M
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 8, 2020 16:57:50 GMT -6
A Speaker is a speaker the only thing that really makes a “ monitor” different is who sells it ! So if it works for you it works for you!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 8, 2020 17:04:47 GMT -6
One of the best, I have forgotten the model but there was a set of nht, that had excellent seas drivers. They are currently featured in amphions. Perhaps you refer to XdS--some of the finest speakers ever made. The drivers are expensive magnesium mid/woofer, and Al cone Tweeter from Seas. Originally, made to work with DSP crossovers (at the time were very expensive--entire set was something like $7k), but I use them with custom passive crossovers. The voicing, details and transparency is amazing, rivaling my Quad ESL63 and Apogee line source true ribbons. Kudos to the guys who engineered them--they knew exactly what they are doing--great respect! Too bad the company went out of business... Best, M Quads and Apogee (aka Magnepan patent infringement) that explains what I hear from your mics Mark! Now what are you driving them with! Keep in mind Seas like 90% of the large driver manufacturers build drivers at all price points, some are to die for some are ehh. It’s also about how you use them, great drivers stupid execution makes for bad speakers.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 8, 2020 17:21:51 GMT -6
Well, there is a difference between monitors and hi-fi speakers. It is of course in design. One is meant to be pleasant to listen to, the other is to accurately represent what it's given. Hi-Fi speaker manufacturers always make huge claims, but every brand almost always has its own sonic signature. Monitors do too, but their aims are different, so the approach to sound is different.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 8, 2020 17:23:22 GMT -6
Tbone81, I have 2 pairs of Amphion Argon 2 speakers (one pair at the studio, one pair at home in my mix room). They're basically a ported (rather than passive radiator) version of the One18. Great speakers for a great price (if you're lucky enough to find a used set).
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Post by dmo on Aug 8, 2020 18:10:51 GMT -6
Quads and Apogee (aka Magnepan patent infringement) that explains what I hear from your mics Mark! Now what are you driving them with! Still have my Apogee Diva's with DAX crossover (currently stored/not set up). Bought 93 on return CONUS from Guam. Still one of my favorite speakers - but need a large room and sufficient watts to really shine.
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 8, 2020 18:56:01 GMT -6
Do any of you guys mix or reference on hifi speakers? I'm wondering what other's experience is with NHT's or other inexpensive bookshelf speakers.
For me its still the MEG 906 and NS10 for checking. And this year I learned the lesson that DSP monitoring software (Sonarworks) can help to get good monitoring conditions to near perfect ones. I think I am done with the topic for a long time.
I could not be happier special because it's a daylight home studio now. Working in here is a lot of fun, I can have breaks at my favorite lake, or I can go out for lunch in minutes. I can quit work at any time and can do everyday work next door... 👍👍
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Post by Guitar on Aug 8, 2020 19:22:29 GMT -6
I used to mix on Polk bookshelf speakers but that wasn't the best idea. Those mixes didn't hold up when I checked them elsewhere. The KRK V6 was more reliable, flatter.
Currently I use Focal Aria 906 which are technically Hi Fi speakers. They sound incredible and they are my favorites. I agree with Ericn there are no rules about this, if it works it's a good monitor.
There's a bunch of big people out there using the B&W hi fi's as monitors, including Steve Albini. The NS10 is the original example of all this as was already pointed out. I guess it was supposedly Clearmountain who broke the flood gates on those. At least I think I heard that.
The Polks in the other room are good for a reality check though, mainly because the tweeters are so hot I can hear if there's too much treble, harder to notice on the Focals sometimes.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 8, 2020 19:44:23 GMT -6
I used to mix on Polk bookshelf speakers but that wasn't the best idea. Those mixes didn't hold up when I checked them elsewhere. The KRK V6 was more reliable, flatter. Currently I use Focal Aria 906 which are technically Hi Fi speakers. They sound incredible and they are my favorites. I agree with Ericn there are no rules about this, if it works it's a good monitor. There's a bunch of big people out there using the B&W hi fi's as monitors, including Steve Albini. The NS10 is the original example of all this as was already pointed out. I guess it was supposedly Clearmountain who broke the flood gates on those. At least I think I heard that. The Polks in the other room are good for a reality check though, mainly because the tweeters are so hot I can hear if there's too much treble, harder to notice on the Focals sometimes. B&W 800 series are as pro as anything out there especially in the world of Classical and the Mastering universe.
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Post by markfouxman on Aug 8, 2020 23:31:20 GMT -6
Perhaps you refer to XdS--some of the finest speakers ever made. The drivers are expensive magnesium mid/woofer, and Al cone Tweeter from Seas. Originally, made to work with DSP crossovers (at the time were very expensive--entire set was something like $7k), but I use them with custom passive crossovers. The voicing, details and transparency is amazing, rivaling my Quad ESL63 and Apogee line source true ribbons. Kudos to the guys who engineered them--they knew exactly what they are doing--great respect! Too bad the company went out of business... Best, M Quads and Apogee (aka Magnepan patent infringement) that explains what I hear from your mics Mark! Now what are you driving them with! Keep in mind Seas like 90% of the large driver manufacturers build drivers at all price points, some are to die for some are ehh. It’s also about how you use them, great drivers stupid execution makes for bad speakers. Patent infringement? Do you have any details--would be very interesting to learn. The true ribbons they used only in higher end Magnepans (from memory 1.6?). I never really liked Magnepans, most electrostatics, and Duetta low end. Because of the front-to-back cancellation and amount of air it needs to move the area becomes way big with severe directivity shortcomings. Also, it should be stiff and work in a pure 'piston' mode to get low distortions. I am yet to hear an open baffle ribbon/electrostatic speaker with a satisfying amount of low end and lack of strain. For the Apogee 36" ribbons low end I am using Faital 15" mid/woofer on an open baffle crossing at 800Hz. This is quite amazing (although expensive) woofer--the cone weight is only 115gram (which is quite amazing for that size driver), so it is comfortable going up to 1kHz. But then again, the directivity on the top range is still a problem. I am thinking of adding there a midrange--Audax PR170MO, which is amazing and has those 'magic' qualities... But then the Apogee can become a bit off place being a line source, so I will need to think of making something more appropriate for the job... All the driving amps/pres with optimized gain and no global feedback anywhere in the signal chain I designed and built myself. Before I was using tube amp with cathode follower in the KT88 output stage. To get a huge voltage swing required I used 6B4G (6volt filament 2A3) with 1:2 interstage transformer. When I had Martin Logan electrostatics CLSII full range I made a direct driven tube amp on huge 805 tubes in PP and plate voltage of 1500 Volts at some 300ma(!!!!!). That was a beast with pretty amazing sound! Lately, I became a huge fan of hybrid amps--again no global negative geedback, tube front and output solid state buffer. That's what I am using now for both, the Apogee/Faital (biamped with passive LCR front end crossover), and ESL63. For the ESL63 I am thinking of KT88 output and 1:2 output transformer to drive it directly, which makes perfect sense to eliminate first huge step down, and then step up (which is already in the speaker). Unfortunately, the microphones take all the time, so I am yet to see when and if I will be ever able to get to this project))) Best, M
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2020 0:30:45 GMT -6
The best thing about hifi speakers off a class ab amp is you'll save yourself from the monitor of the month club dealing with shitty plate amps breaking. These things are bad in everything I've used but ATCs and Questeds. You see monitors that cost well north of 1000 with the same generic plate amps that probably all came from the same OEM in China with the same chip amps and gainclonish amps.
NS10m, Auratones, and Proacs were all hifi speakers. Hifi speakers can be fine. You can easily get a solid pair that are better than 99% of all active monitors when hooked up to a real amp. They might not be as flat as some mediocre dsped class d monstrosity but they're always more reactive than crazy complex crossover bs. The only thing is hifi speakers are the wild west. Go to a dealer or show, and there will only be a couple models that beat a solid low end JBL or Yamaha monitor. But those will kick cheap actives into the atmosphere. They still lose to the best of the best monitors but those are 2000 bucks for a pair of passive two way monitors and 5k for actives and three ways cost a car. You can get a good amp fixed up for well under a thousand dollars and find a good hifi pair for another thousand. Some of the diy kits with a cheap used class ab amp will kill anything "pro" under a thousand dollars a pair.
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Post by brenta on Aug 9, 2020 8:30:43 GMT -6
Don’t nhts have seas speakers and tweeters ? The SuperOnes and SuperZeros do not, but they have had some other models in the past that use SEAS.
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Post by brenta on Aug 9, 2020 8:55:43 GMT -6
I exclusively use hifi speakers these days. I've had the NHT SuperOnes for a couple years and still have SuperZeros in my studio. I mainly use the SuperZeros for reference more than actively mixing on them.
The NHTs got popular enough for pro audio that for a while they manufactured some models specifically for pro audio. The pro audio version of the SuperZero is called the M00, the pro audio SuperOne is called the A-20.
Both the SuperOnes and SuperZeros have a slight bump in the 1k range, and also around 200hz which can give them a little bit of a throaty sound and highlight issues in that range. The sealed design gives them a smoother roll off in the low end.
One nice thing about passive hifi speakers, you can get a nice amp and a speaker switcher, which makes adding pairs much cheaper than powered monitors. It's pretty easy to find cheap, decent amps on the second hand market. The hifi market is also much more liquid so it is easy to buy and sell speakers to try out different pairs.
I've tried the NHTs, Mission, and Chane speakers. I still want to try Wharfedales and Ascend. But as-of now I'm settled on Tyler Acoustics D2X, Chane 1.5, NHT SuperZeros, and a mixcube.
The Tyler Acoustics are designed and sold as hifi but have gotten very popular with mastering engineers. They use a SEAS tweeter. The Chane speakers are amazing for the money. They use a planar leaf tweeter which has some of the most accurate, detailed and revealing high end I've ever heard. Absolutely blows away the Adams I used to have and much less expensive. You can really dig in and perform surgery on the high end. The low end is also good; they use something called an XBL woofer which is supposed to be special, but mostly I use the Tyler's for checking low end since they get down to ~20hz.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 9, 2020 9:22:58 GMT -6
Quads and Apogee (aka Magnepan patent infringement) that explains what I hear from your mics Mark! Now what are you driving them with! Keep in mind Seas like 90% of the large driver manufacturers build drivers at all price points, some are to die for some are ehh. It’s also about how you use them, great drivers stupid execution makes for bad speakers. Patent infringement? Do you have any details--would be very interesting to learn. The true ribbons they used only in higher end Magnepans (from memory 1.6?). I never really liked Magnepans, most electrostatics, and Duetta low end. Because of the front-to-back cancellation and amount of air it needs to move the area becomes way big with severe directivity shortcomings. Also, it should be stiff and work in a pure 'piston' mode to get low distortions. I am yet to hear an open baffle ribbon/electrostatic speaker with a satisfying amount of low end and lack of strain. For the Apogee 36" ribbons low end I am using Faital 15" mid/woofer on an open baffle crossing at 800Hz. This is quite amazing (although expensive) woofer--the cone weight is only 115gram (which is quite amazing for that size driver), so it is comfortable going up to 1kHz. But then again, the directivity on the top range is still a problem. I am thinking of adding there a midrange--Audax PR170MO, which is amazing and has those 'magic' qualities... But then the Apogee can become a bit off place being a line source, so I will need to think of making something more appropriate for the job... All the driving amps/pres with optimized gain and no global feedback anywhere in the signal chain I designed and built myself. Before I was using tube amp with cathode follower in the KT88 output stage. To get a huge voltage swing required I used 6B4G (6volt filament 2A3) with 1:2 interstage transformer. When I had Martin Logan electrostatics CLSII full range I made a direct driven tube amp on huge 805 tubes in PP and plate voltage of 1500 Volts at some 300ma(!!!!!). That was a beast with pretty amazing sound! Lately, I became a huge fan of hybrid amps--again no global negative geedback, tube front and output solid state buffer. That's what I am using now for both, the Apogee/Faital (biamped with passive LCR front end crossover), and ESL63. For the ESL63 I am thinking of KT88 output and 1:2 output transformer to drive it directly, which makes perfect sense to eliminate first huge step down, and then step up (which is already in the speaker). Unfortunately, the microphones take all the time, so I am yet to see when and if I will be ever able to get to this project))) Best, M Both companies were quite closed lipped about it, some have said it was about the line source ribbon others have said it was all about the bass panel. One source from MN told me it had to do with an adhesive used. I don’t know the details except that Apogee lost and the settlement included Apogee paying a royalty for every speaker sold. I do remember hearing one of the guys from Apogee complaining that it would drive them out of buisness, and it did. Remember most of the early Magnepan guys were from 3M the American king of patents. The Apogees were quite impressive, but I think 2 factors drove towards Magnepan 1 in my youth I could afford amps that could could drive them well, the current demands of Apogees really limit your amp choice. 2 every time I heard them they were in the same room as the Infinity Beta’s and those servo bass towers just had that Umph and seamed to go down to never land. I think the Carver Amazing Apogee clone also left a bad taste in my mouth, it was a Amazing how life like it made synth sound and how synthesized real instruments sounded. The only way to really get any conventional driver to gel with a line source ribbon is to use multiples in a line array, but you always seam to lose something because you no matter how tight the manufacturers freq. and phase tolerance you notice that loss of detail. The Quad 63 with a little tube amp is the lens every mic manufacturer should use to judge the midrange, if only they went low and played loud. My favorite ESL will always be out of my price range, the best speaker ever designed by a deaf guy, the big Soundlabs.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 9, 2020 9:30:12 GMT -6
I exclusively use hifi speakers these days. I've had the NHT SuperOnes for a couple years and still have SuperZeros in my studio. I mainly use the SuperZeros for reference more than actively mixing on them. The NHTs got popular enough for pro audio that for a while they manufactured some models specifically for pro audio. The pro audio version of the SuperZero is called the M00, the pro audio SuperOne is called the A-20. Both the SuperOnes and SuperZeros have a slight bump in the 1k range, and also around 200hz which can give them a little bit of a throaty sound and highlight issues in that range. The sealed design gives them a smoother roll off in the low end. One nice thing about passive hifi speakers, you can get a nice amp and a speaker switcher, which makes adding pairs much cheaper than powered monitors. It's pretty easy to find cheap, decent amps on the second hand market. The hifi market is also much more liquid so it is easy to buy and sell speakers to try out different pairs. I've tried the NHTs, Mission, and Chane speakers. I still want to try Wharfedales and Ascend. But as-of now I'm settled on Tyler Acoustics D2X, Chane 1.5, NHT SuperZeros, and a mixcube. The Tyler Acoustics are designed and sold as hifi but have gotten very popular with mastering engineers. They use a SEAS tweeter. The Chane speakers are amazing for the money. They use a planar leaf tweeter which has some of the most accurate, detailed and revealing high end I've ever heard. Absolutely blows away the Adams I used to have and much less expensive. You can really dig in and perform surgery on the high end. The low end is also good; they use something called an XBL woofer which is supposed to be special, but mostly I use the Tyler's for checking low end since they get down to ~20hz. The NHT’ pro stuff sounded great for the money. It was a hard sell because they did the smart thing and took the amp out of box. At the time we were still selling a lot of near fields to freelancers and I had the guys at Porta Brace make a divider for one of there cases that fit Genelec 1031’s and a version for Quested 108’s that made them easy to fly with.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2020 16:00:11 GMT -6
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Post by nick8801 on Aug 10, 2020 10:33:53 GMT -6
I had a pair of nht super zeroes I was mixing on for a bit. Really fun. Similar vibe to ns10’s. Kind of fast, closed box speakers. Sold them for ns10’s. I like the ns10’s better.
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 10, 2020 11:03:49 GMT -6
I had a pair of nht super zeroes I was mixing on for a bit. Really fun. Similar vibe to ns10’s. Kind of fast, closed box speakers. Sold them for ns10’s. I like the ns10’s better. im really enjoying them so far too. But I might try the same thing if I find a decent pair of ns10s for cheap
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Post by brenta on Aug 10, 2020 14:08:46 GMT -6
I just circled back to the NS10s after 10 years, but I’m not sure how I’m going to make room for them.
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