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Post by craigmorris74 on Jul 10, 2020 15:14:54 GMT -6
I made the comparison offer because I have the hardware, use it time, but think it's a bit silly to think a mix is going to fall apart from using a few plug ins, or that a plug in's signature is that obvious. I've never seen anyone able to identify this signature in real world examples.
And I'm not saying plugs and hardware are identical, I'm saying nobody can reliable identity that 'plug in" sound. I could be proven wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 15:20:56 GMT -6
It’s obvious to me with my own mixes that most digital compressors aren’t well-behaved or accurate enough for 2 bus use without degradation. The Glue is still the easiest to set one for control and speeding up mixes and has a very well behaved sidechain but it’s not there yet. Dmg trackcomp isn’t even close and still doesn’t model the vca distorting upon gain reduction, yet alone the sidechain assymetrical distortion. The GUI sucks too. Kotelnikov GE is awesome but it will remix your tracks and you’ll have to tinker with it. It takes too long to set up to mix into. It is a mastering compressor but I find it way cooler and more flexible than most of the hardware mastering type compressors, which are usually pretty boring with nice box tone. I end up just using Varimu plugs like MJUC, Density, and the Magic Death Eye I am demoing. They’re better than the VCA plugs for that final push and harmonic energy and you can use time constraints and gain reductions that would give a Manley diarrhea in real life.
It depends if you’re using shitty analog emulation plugs or non linear plugs that artifact, alias, and don’t behave right. Often the entire workflow has to be fundamentally different to get a similar result but I’ve found I can do the job with halfway decently recorded multitracks with uncramped parametric eqs and Fabfilter type stuff (Barely better than what’s in most daws, just not totally fucked up like ReaComp) with a couple of decent unaliased, artifact-free color plugs unless I need VSTis or sound mangling. That is if the multi tracks are halfway decent. Half the time, they pretty much need hardware or crazy plugin stacks of better behaved plugins than what you’ll see on Pensado’s Place. There are a lot less great plugins than there is great analog gear but then there are plugins as good as any hardware like the Fabfilter parametric EQ and the Tokyo Dawn stuff. I still haven’t heard anything close to a great plugin VCA comp or LA2A/1176 for that matter. They can’t do yet what a cheap DBX or THAT ic can. I’m going to test the PA VSC-2 and Overloud 1176 v2 this weekend.
I love a clean workflow but most stuff I’m sent now has multitracks or stems that are all over the place with radically different gear timbre and half the instruments will be awful. Especially in the pandemic when the guys who would go to a vocal booth or drum room or rent something are not. Ever heard a poorly miced up Boss Katana with no di? I have.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 10, 2020 15:37:58 GMT -6
It’s obvious with my own mixes that most digital compressors aren’t wel-behaved or accurate enough for 2 bus use without degradation. The Glue is still the easiest to set one for control and speeding up mixes and has a very well behaved sidechain but it’s not there yet. Dmg trackcomp isn’t even close and still doesn’t model the vca distorting upon gain reduction, yet alone the sidechain assymetrical distortion. The GUI sucks too. Kotelnikov GE is awesome but it will remix your tracks and you’ll have to tinker with it. It takes too long to set up to mix into. It is a mastering compressor but I find it way cooler and more flexible than most of the hardware mastering type compressors, which are usually pretty boring with nice box tone. I end up just using Varimu plugs like MJUC, Density, and Magic Death Eye. They’re better than the VCA plugs for that final push and harmonic energy and you can use time constraints and gain reductions that would give a Manley diarrhea in real life. It depends if you’re using shitty analog emulation plugs or non linear plugs that artifact, alias, and don’t behave right. Often the entire workflow has to be fundamentally different to get a similar result but I’ve found I can do the job with halfway decently recorded multitracks with uncramped parametric eqs and Fabfilter type stuff (Barely better than what’s in most daws, just not totally fucked up like ReaComp) with a couple of decent unaliased, artifact-free color plugs unless I need VSTis or sound mangling. That is if the multi tracks are halfway decent. Half the time, they pretty much need hardware or crazy plugin stacks of better behaved plugins than what you’ll see on Pensado’s Place. There are a lot less great plugins than there is great analog gear but then there are plugins as good as any hardware like the Fabfilter parametric EQ and the Tokyo Dawn stuff. I still haven’t heard anything close to a great plugin VCA comp or LA2A/1176 for that matter. They can’t do yet what a cheap DBX or THAT ic can. I’m going to test the PA VSC-2 and Overloud 1176 v2 this weekend. Hey man, off topic, but obviously you're a metal guy. Did you work on this Celtic Frost record or is it just something you hold in high regard? Is the super heavy 80's stuff your wheelhouse? What are some of your favorite sounding records?
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Post by drbill on Jul 10, 2020 15:59:12 GMT -6
I have no idea. And I don't put stock in those types of A/B comparisons. But when I have the hardware and plugins in front of me, and I can A/B between them, then yeah, I can hear it all day long. Who knows, maybe my hardware is just super duper great, and maybe I have crap plugins. There is one thing though - a lot of the hardware I'm rocking has no plug in emulating it. So maybe there is that.....
IMO opinion it also has to do with waht you like. If you love driving real gear it will have an impact on your sound perception. No one is to 100% free form this.
And this is one reason why I think the debate is useless.
If somone can create a good sounding mix ITB... fine ... he can do it. I general I agrre using some hardware in some spots can make live easier. But some plug ins of today can imaprt magic too.
The same argument works the other way too, and IMO, with double the veracity. From what I see, most people who use plugins compare them to hardware in online clips, or in a distant session they did in someone else's studio and declare virtually no difference. They take the "remembrance" of the hardware and say "this plugin sounds just like the real thing". It's an entirely different experience to have BOTH sitting right in front of you 16 hours a day, 7 days a week, and making a decision about which sounds better. The conclusions come fast and furious when you have the opportunity to use either, and you're voting for the BEST. Not making a conclusion that you think a particular plug sounds magic or good or how an 1176 should sound. It's really no different than comparing a Slate 1176 and a UA 1176 plugin and deciding which sounds "best". You're going to lean into one over the other most of the time. Same deal with hardware vs. any plugin that I have. The hardware always has more "life", is less 2 dimensional, seems to breathe better and is more lively. That's why they get chosen even though time is quite literally money for me, and my schedule NEVER has enough time to get the things done that I need to get done. To compare a plugin to a memory vs. having an instant A/B in your own studio on the track you've been listening to for 15 minutes is a fantasy illusion. And quite frankly, in this day and age for most internet critics, that just isn't happening.
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Post by drbill on Jul 10, 2020 16:02:45 GMT -6
I made the comparison offer because I have the hardware, use it time, but think it's a bit silly to think a mix is going to fall apart from using a few plug ins, or that a plug in's signature is that obvious. I've never seen anyone able to identify this signature in real world examples. And I'm not saying plugs and hardware are identical, I'm saying nobody can reliable identity that 'plug in" sound. I could be proven wrong. Craig - I'm not sure if you were replying to me or not, but if so, I never said a mix would fall apart with plugins. I just said I could tell with my particular gear, my particular plugins, in my studio. And that the hardware almost always wins - all day long, every day. There is no question about it in my mind. It's not the only way to work as I mentioned earlier. There are compelling reasons driving top engineers to mix 100% ITB. I get it. But IMO, those are logistical, workflow, and financial reasons. Not sonic ones.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 16:03:38 GMT -6
It’s obvious with my own mixes that most digital compressors aren’t wel-behaved or accurate enough for 2 bus use without degradation. The Glue is still the easiest to set one for control and speeding up mixes and has a very well behaved sidechain but it’s not there yet. Dmg trackcomp isn’t even close and still doesn’t model the vca distorting upon gain reduction, yet alone the sidechain assymetrical distortion. The GUI sucks too. Kotelnikov GE is awesome but it will remix your tracks and you’ll have to tinker with it. It takes too long to set up to mix into. It is a mastering compressor but I find it way cooler and more flexible than most of the hardware mastering type compressors, which are usually pretty boring with nice box tone. I end up just using Varimu plugs like MJUC, Density, and Magic Death Eye. They’re better than the VCA plugs for that final push and harmonic energy and you can use time constraints and gain reductions that would give a Manley diarrhea in real life. It depends if you’re using shitty analog emulation plugs or non linear plugs that artifact, alias, and don’t behave right. Often the entire workflow has to be fundamentally different to get a similar result but I’ve found I can do the job with halfway decently recorded multitracks with uncramped parametric eqs and Fabfilter type stuff (Barely better than what’s in most daws, just not totally fucked up like ReaComp) with a couple of decent unaliased, artifact-free color plugs unless I need VSTis or sound mangling. That is if the multi tracks are halfway decent. Half the time, they pretty much need hardware or crazy plugin stacks of better behaved plugins than what you’ll see on Pensado’s Place. There are a lot less great plugins than there is great analog gear but then there are plugins as good as any hardware like the Fabfilter parametric EQ and the Tokyo Dawn stuff. I still haven’t heard anything close to a great plugin VCA comp or LA2A/1176 for that matter. They can’t do yet what a cheap DBX or THAT ic can. I’m going to test the PA VSC-2 and Overloud 1176 v2 this weekend. Hey man, off topic, but obviously you're a metal guy. Did you work on this Celtic Frost record or is it just something you hold in high regard? Is the super heavy 80's stuff your wheelhouse? What are some of your favorite sounding records? I just love early Celtic Frost and picked it quickly because I love the record and it sounds great to me. I eventually found the original mix 80s CD this year and it’s kinda boring compared to the remixed and partially re-recorded one I had since the 2000s. I hate everything Tom Warrior did after To Mega Therion. Metal records that would sound good to you but I’ve heard too much? Most Black Sabbath and Immolation. Sodom’s Agent Orange is warm but it’s boring. Some of the Swedish death metal done at Sunlight sounds great but I’ve heard them all way too much and hate the punks fawning over the pedals, making the pedals expensive, and making horrible sounding modern hardcore records with them. Me? The Deicide self-titled. It basically is the demo with better drum sounds. Hell Awaits and South of Heaven, not Reign in Blood. Don’t Break the Oath. Realm of Chaos. Onward to Golgotha. The 90s cd, not the horrific remaster that stripped all the mud and warmth out. Filthy 80s Carcass. I hate bouncy and sterile 90s rock Carcass. All Beherit. Beherit does filthy black metal right.
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Post by the other mark williams on Jul 10, 2020 17:23:42 GMT -6
It’s obvious to me with my own mixes that most digital compressors aren’t well-behaved or accurate enough for 2 bus use without degradation. The Glue is still the easiest to set one for control and speeding up mixes and has a very well behaved sidechain but it’s not there yet. Dmg trackcomp isn’t even close and still doesn’t model the vca distorting upon gain reduction, yet alone the sidechain assymetrical distortion. The GUI sucks too. Kotelnikov GE is awesome but it will remix your tracks and you’ll have to tinker with it. It takes too long to set up to mix into. It is a mastering compressor but I find it way cooler and more flexible than most of the hardware mastering type compressors, which are usually pretty boring with nice box tone. I end up just using Varimu plugs like MJUC, Density, and the Magic Death Eye I am demoing. They’re better than the VCA plugs for that final push and harmonic energy and you can use time constraints and gain reductions that would give a Manley diarrhea in real life. It depends if you’re using shitty analog emulation plugs or non linear plugs that artifact, alias, and don’t behave right. Often the entire workflow has to be fundamentally different to get a similar result but I’ve found I can do the job with halfway decently recorded multitracks with uncramped parametric eqs and Fabfilter type stuff (Barely better than what’s in most daws, just not totally fucked up like ReaComp) with a couple of decent unaliased, artifact-free color plugs unless I need VSTis or sound mangling. That is if the multi tracks are halfway decent. Half the time, they pretty much need hardware or crazy plugin stacks of better behaved plugins than what you’ll see on Pensado’s Place. There are a lot less great plugins than there is great analog gear but then there are plugins as good as any hardware like the Fabfilter parametric EQ and the Tokyo Dawn stuff. I still haven’t heard anything close to a great plugin VCA comp or LA2A/1176 for that matter. They can’t do yet what a cheap DBX or THAT ic can. I’m going to test the PA VSC-2 and Overloud 1176 v2 this weekend. I love a clean workflow but most stuff I’m sent now has multitracks or stems that are all over the place with radically different gear timbre and half the instruments will be awful. Especially in the pandemic when the guys who would go to a vocal booth or drum room or rent something are not. Ever heard a poorly miced up Boss Katana with no di? I have. You are obviously a man with very strong opinions. And that’s cool. But there are other opinions out there, as well. I’ve been using The Glue since what, 2010? It’s fine, but I do prefer DMG TrackComp. Neither sound much like my Audioscape Bus Comp, though. I find hardware in general to be more forgiving and to have a larger sweet spot. Many (not all) plugin compressors sound somewhat pinched in comparison to hardware, IMO, but it seems like there’s another leap every 2-3 yrs, so who knows? Every leap gets a little closer. It’s OK to have different opinions on this stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 18:11:06 GMT -6
It’s obvious to me with my own mixes that most digital compressors aren’t well-behaved or accurate enough for 2 bus use without degradation. The Glue is still the easiest to set one for control and speeding up mixes and has a very well behaved sidechain but it’s not there yet. Dmg trackcomp isn’t even close and still doesn’t model the vca distorting upon gain reduction, yet alone the sidechain assymetrical distortion. The GUI sucks too. Kotelnikov GE is awesome but it will remix your tracks and you’ll have to tinker with it. It takes too long to set up to mix into. It is a mastering compressor but I find it way cooler and more flexible than most of the hardware mastering type compressors, which are usually pretty boring with nice box tone. I end up just using Varimu plugs like MJUC, Density, and the Magic Death Eye I am demoing. They’re better than the VCA plugs for that final push and harmonic energy and you can use time constraints and gain reductions that would give a Manley diarrhea in real life. It depends if you’re using shitty analog emulation plugs or non linear plugs that artifact, alias, and don’t behave right. Often the entire workflow has to be fundamentally different to get a similar result but I’ve found I can do the job with halfway decently recorded multitracks with uncramped parametric eqs and Fabfilter type stuff (Barely better than what’s in most daws, just not totally fucked up like ReaComp) with a couple of decent unaliased, artifact-free color plugs unless I need VSTis or sound mangling. That is if the multi tracks are halfway decent. Half the time, they pretty much need hardware or crazy plugin stacks of better behaved plugins than what you’ll see on Pensado’s Place. There are a lot less great plugins than there is great analog gear but then there are plugins as good as any hardware like the Fabfilter parametric EQ and the Tokyo Dawn stuff. I still haven’t heard anything close to a great plugin VCA comp or LA2A/1176 for that matter. They can’t do yet what a cheap DBX or THAT ic can. I’m going to test the PA VSC-2 and Overloud 1176 v2 this weekend. I love a clean workflow but most stuff I’m sent now has multitracks or stems that are all over the place with radically different gear timbre and half the instruments will be awful. Especially in the pandemic when the guys who would go to a vocal booth or drum room or rent something are not. Ever heard a poorly miced up Boss Katana with no di? I have. You are obviously a man with very strong opinions. And that’s cool. But there are other opinions out there, as well. I’ve been using The Glue since what, 2010? It’s fine, but I do prefer DMG TrackComp. Neither sound much like my Audioscape Bus Comp, though. I find hardware in general to be more forgiving and to have a larger sweet spot. Many (not all) plugin compressors sound somewhat pinched in comparison to hardware, IMO, but it seems like there’s another leap every 2-3 yrs, so who knows? Every leap gets a little closer. It’s OK to have different opinions on this stuff. I agree. It's whatever works.
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Post by OtisGreying on Jul 10, 2020 21:08:26 GMT -6
drbill, just out of curiosity, how many plugins created in the last year have you tested out?
Trying some recently created well reviewed plugins you may find them sonically not lacking as much as whatever it is you've tested in the past that brought you to your current conclusion. Just a thought. Or you could feel exactly the same way as you currently do, who knows. My guess is most mixers would agree plug-ins are improving everyday and if you made up your mind 5 years ago, today might be a different story.
I think the advancements in software and sonic quality plugins of the last 2-3 years very likely played a role in Brauers switch.
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Post by drbill on Jul 10, 2020 21:44:36 GMT -6
drbill, just out of curiosity, how many plugins created in the last year have you tested out?
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Not sure. Probably half a dozen. But I'm not sure when they were "designed". I'm certainly not on the "cutting edge" of plugin purchasing. I really see no point in it. When I have a hole in my arsenal, or am looking for something new, or see a huge amount of hype (usually a disappointment for me), I'll buy one or a few. But I'm not chasing them. I chase hardware though....
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Post by Ward on Jul 11, 2020 6:24:48 GMT -6
Give up my outboard. Not when I have NanoComp/Nanoverb/Aphex Type C Exciter/Bellari LA-120 and the like! Great thread guys. Grasshooper returns to following. Go Dr. Bill! Chris I have a few 'vintage' pieces lying around from my early 20s that you might like . . . Alesis Micro Limiter, Micro Gate, Micro Enhancer, Quad gate, DBX 172 Supergate, and a few more! I'm willing to cut you a GREAT deal!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 11, 2020 8:26:57 GMT -6
Give up my outboard. Not when I have NanoComp/Nanoverb/Aphex Type C Exciter/Bellari LA-120 and the like! Great thread guys. Grasshooper returns to following. Go Dr. Bill! Chris I have a few 'vintage' pieces lying around from my early 20s that you might like . . . Alesis Micro Limiter, Micro Gate, Micro Enhancer, Quad gate, DBX 172 Supergate, and a few more! I'm willing to cut you a GREAT deal! I have a Bill Gates I hear it’s worth billions 😁
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Post by chessparov on Jul 11, 2020 10:57:36 GMT -6
Give up my outboard. Not when I have NanoComp/Nanoverb/Aphex Type C Exciter/Bellari LA-120 and the like! Great thread guys. Grasshooper returns to following. Go Dr. Bill! Chris I have a few 'vintage' pieces lying around from my early 20s that you might like . . . Alesis Micro Limiter, Micro Gate, Micro Enhancer, Quad gate, DBX 172 Supergate, and a few more! I'm willing to cut you a GREAT deal! Hmm... Such a generous offer! On second thought, maybe Brauer is on to something. All of a sudden, ITB is looking a whole lot better. Plus I can't "take those away" from some creative kid out there, making their "Ode To Billie Eyelash", in their bedroom studio! Chris
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 11, 2020 10:58:03 GMT -6
IMO opinion it also has to do with waht you like. If you love driving real gear it will have an impact on your sound perception. No one is to 100% free form this.
And this is one reason why I think the debate is useless.
If somone can create a good sounding mix ITB... fine ... he can do it. I general I agrre using some hardware in some spots can make live easier. But some plug ins of today can imaprt magic too.
The same argument works the other way too, and IMO, with double the veracity. From what I see, most people who use plugins compare them to hardware in online clips, or in a distant session they did in someone else's studio and declare virtually no difference. They take the "remembrance" of the hardware and say "this plugin sounds just like the real thing". It's an entirely different experience to have BOTH sitting right in front of you 16 hours a day, 7 days a week, and making a decision about which sounds better. The conclusions come fast and furious when you have the opportunity to use either, and you're voting for the BEST. Not making a conclusion that you think a particular plug sounds magic or good or how an 1176 should sound. It's really no different than comparing a Slate 1176 and a UA 1176 plugin and deciding which sounds "best". You're going to lean into one over the other most of the time. Same deal with hardware vs. any plugin that I have. The hardware always has more "life", is less 2 dimensional, seems to breathe better and is more lively. That's why they get chosen even though time is quite literally money for me, and my schedule NEVER has enough time to get the things done that I need to get done. To compare a plugin to a memory vs. having an instant A/B in your own studio on the track you've been listening to for 15 minutes is a fantasy illusion. And quite frankly, in this day and age for most internet critics, that just isn't happening.
I talk blind AB in mix mode without knowing which is which one. I say everybody can have an surprising moment, even my mentor with 40 years expereince failed in blind AB.
But it does not matter we both still love hardware even if I minimized my setup.
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Post by christopher on Jul 11, 2020 11:41:21 GMT -6
I need to make a YouTube video on this someday.. AB level match everyone will fail.. it’s pro equipment, the only ‘tell’ which is which is an altered freq response or distortion. if the difference isn’t either of those two things most people will fail. Because that’s what they listen for. And all pro audio has excellent FR and distortion. So that’s why everyone fails. if one is slightly brighter at 10k than the other, it’s going to be perceived as louder=better.. same if you desire a bigger low end, if one is 1/4dB louder in the lows and we want that. The real difference is in dynamic response in certain frequencies, and impulse response, how fast things change in voltage. That’s where the musicality and expression of the music is the character of something. This is something that takes years of ear training and listening for. And it’s only usefulness to ear train is passing a blind AB, no other reason.. the rest of the time we just “feel” it, “like” it. John Epstein’s comments helped me figure this out.. a blind AB we are trying to pass a test, not enjoy the moment, very different experience. For passing tests it’s about being analytical and critical.. Anyway. I’m a lone voice swimming the wrong direction on this
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Post by ericn on Jul 11, 2020 12:25:17 GMT -6
I have a few 'vintage' pieces lying around from my early 20s that you might like . . . Alesis Micro Limiter, Micro Gate, Micro Enhancer, Quad gate, DBX 172 Supergate, and a few more! I'm willing to cut you a GREAT deal! Hmm... Such a generous offer! On second thought, maybe Brauer is on to something. All of a sudden, ITB is looking a whole lot better. Plus I can't "take those away" from some creative kid out there, making their "Ode To Billie Eyelash", in their bedroom studio! Chris Don’t worry that kid got the new Waves Nano Suite free with his new copy of Garage Band Pro
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2020 12:32:49 GMT -6
The abx tests are not scientific. There is no control. You just find something that makes them sound clearly different and pass 100%. Most of the tests are rigged from the start by charlatans like Ethan Whiner. The people adamant that everything sounds the same lose their shit when you say you can tell the difference or set the variables to pass 100%. If they can’t, I find that most of the time, one of pieces of equipment in their signal path, including their room, is very opaquely colored or unreactive. Some of these objectivist (philosophers would take great issue with these claims toward objectivity of human perception) pseudoscientists will be cranking everything into distortion. There were some people on YouTube a while ago who claimed that all “clean” preamps sound the same. They offered money to people who could tell a level matched Apollo Twin from an SSL product. Many people could. They never paid.
All that said, most analog emulation plugins have distortion plots and gain reduction behavior that look nothing like the hardware. UAD and some other plugin developers usually try to recreate the boxtone but it’s still a bit off and the gain reduction is off. UAD didn’t used to try to match the hardware for this just like most Waves plugs don’t even try. Others try to recreate the behavior but no box tone. Others have a static boxtone that doesn’t change with settings and gain reduction unless you overload the plugin, while the odd order harmonics of digital compressors build up. Does it matter? Depends what you’re doing. Many saturating/distorting plug that aren’t just soft clippers can only take 9 pm on the drive knob before digititus and harsh odd order harmonics take over but the starting setting is noon. Will you care? Again it depends. On the two bus, the difference is usually very obvious to me when I have the chance to ab plugs vs hardware. The DMG Trackcomp mentioned earlier in this thread by Mark and I has a lot of great modes (I want to buy it for the 1176, LA2A, and DBX 160 the best time I need something that ballpark) but the modes based on the SSL channels and bus and the API 2500 are pretty off and it’s easy to hear. Plugin Doctor checks out too for it. I will post test tone plots later.
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 11, 2020 13:00:56 GMT -6
The real difference is in dynamic response in certain frequencies, and impulse response, how fast things change in voltage. That’s where the musicality and expression of the music is the character of something. This is something that takes years of ear training and listening for. And it’s only usefulness to ear train is passing a blind AB, no other reason.. the rest of the time we just “feel” it, “like” it. John Epstein’s comments helped me figure this out.. a blind AB we are trying to pass a test, not enjoy the moment, very different experience. For passing tests it’s about being analytical and critical.. Anyway. I’m a lone voice swimming the wrong direction on this
Do I understand your thesis right? You say its a diffrence enjoying OTB vs ITB mixes. Thats a good one and opnes the topic hearing psychology.
A scinetific thesis.....
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Post by seawell on Jul 11, 2020 13:30:22 GMT -6
I will say this much....when you want to make a move for financial reasons, your mind can play powerful tricks on you. I've been there many times. It sucks but our industry is really down and we may be better off just being honest and saying that we’re going to have to use inferior tools for a while and do the best we can until things turn around. Pretending plug ins are just as good or even better isn’t very helpful IMO.
I've done a ton of A/B tests with hardware vs plug in compressors, EQs, reverbs, delays. you name it. I know my personal findings from those but the test I think is even more valuable is this....go through any of these guys' discography that are now going ITB. Find their best work on a console then find their best work on their new set ups. See what you think. That was the most eye opening for me.
There are analog mixes that to this day still blow my mind...they are a mystery, there are so many layers and such depth that I can study them for what seems like forever. For years I have tried to find an ITB mix to do the same to challenge me as a mixer. Are there ITB mixes that sound good, that are commercially successful? Sure! But I selfishly miss the magic of what our industry used to produce.
I hope our industry makes some kind of miraculous turn around so that we can once again aspire to have the very best tools for the job. Having said all that, I don't blame anyone for going ITB at all to stay afloat. I am very much in that boat these days myself but I am still hopeful that it won't be that way forever.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2020 14:05:41 GMT -6
Here are some basic 4 dbs of gain reduction on the DMG Trackcomp SSL bus and API 2500 models with some typical real world settings. The API 2500 is "cleanest" while the SSL is missing the biggest even order harmonic. DMG Trackcomp does not have aliasing when oversampled. Compare these to a typical horribly aliased compressor, the Plugin Alliance VSC-2, which has no oversampling. All measurements were taken at 44.1 kHz. Running the DAW session at 88.2 or 96 kHz will not save you from aliasing in bad plugins and will cost more CPU cycles than good oversampled plugins at 44.1 or 48 kHz
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Post by OtisGreying on Jul 11, 2020 17:07:19 GMT -6
tomegatherion, which ITB compressors/analog emulations do you recommend as far as these problems are concerned? I recently purchased Kush AR-1, Magic Death Eye, I am considering True Dynamics, Kotelkinov GE and Unisum. Also, any idea how UAD compressors perform in this regard?
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 11, 2020 17:26:16 GMT -6
donr. At UA forum one of the mods Dan , started a thread a few year’s ago about brauerizing, including templates. Dan runs his own home based studio and teaches recording at a local school .
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Post by christopher on Jul 11, 2020 17:57:54 GMT -6
The real difference is in dynamic response in certain frequencies, and impulse response, how fast things change in voltage. That’s where the musicality and expression of the music is the character of something. This is something that takes years of ear training and listening for. And it’s only usefulness to ear train is passing a blind AB, no other reason.. the rest of the time we just “feel” it, “like” it. John Epstein’s comments helped me figure this out.. a blind AB we are trying to pass a test, not enjoy the moment, very different experience. For passing tests it’s about being analytical and critical.. Anyway. I’m a lone voice swimming the wrong direction on this
Do I understand your thesis right? You say its a diffrence enjoying OTB vs ITB mixes. Thats a good one and opnes the topic hearing psychology.
A scinetific thesis.....
It’s a long discussion.. many layers and facets. The summary is, great wine can be made with cheap grapes.. you have to be a decent chemist, and expect to do a lot of extra work, or just get lucky and happen to have a pretty good crop that taste good! Great wine can also be made with great grapes, and you will still need to be a great chemist. But the amount of work may be less and the control over flavor feel easier, and take it in many directions. In theory, the Absolute best wine is when the best grapes, best crop, best chemists all work together. No compromises.
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Post by donr on Jul 11, 2020 18:49:05 GMT -6
donr . At UA forum one of the mods Dan , started a thread a few year’s ago about brauerizing, including templates. Dan runs his own home based studio and teaches recording at a local school . I've almost routinely at this point put a software compressor across guitars, vocals and drum/bass submixes, even if they just touch the compressor, on the way to tightening the peak/average level ratio for finished product. I like mixing into these as they effect eq and individual track decisions. The Brauer method is nifty because different elements can have different breathing/pumping rhythms based on the attack and release of the stem compressors. It's not appropriate for all music but my ear really likes it for pop music. I'm not doing this professionally however. On my own music today, I record my overdub performances but so far I've left the mixing and mastering to the professionals.
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Post by mrholmes on Jul 12, 2020 5:00:01 GMT -6
Do I understand your thesis right? You say its a diffrence enjoying OTB vs ITB mixes. Thats a good one and opnes the topic hearing psychology.
A scinetific thesis.....
It’s a long discussion.. many layers and facets. The summary is, great wine can be made with cheap grapes.. you have to be a decent chemist, and expect to do a lot of extra work, or just get lucky and happen to have a pretty good crop that taste good! Great wine can also be made with great grapes, and you will still need to be a great chemist. But the amount of work may be less and the control over flavor feel easier, and take it in many directions. In theory, the Absolute best wine is when the best grapes, best crop, best chemists all work together. No compromises.
Maybe your view point makes sense. What ever it takes I like to work with hardware on the way in and mixing ITB. But yes drbill is right here and there I grab also hardware in mix mode because it just feels easier to do. If I do it, beeing a hobyist vs. Mr. Brauer...
Bill is may right that Mr. Brauer is usning "the few units" he is not selling.
As soon I think a few songs of me are the ones I really stand behind I also will go to friends studio with the Neve console and racks full of hardware. Its a diffrent fun, also I love to work with him, he is a great Producer/AE tons of expereince.
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