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Post by indiehouse on Feb 9, 2020 11:54:36 GMT -6
What do you all think of the vocal? I feel like I need to have him re-track it. I feel like it’s too colored at times and that the melodyne is too noticeable, but necessary.
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Post by M57 on Feb 9, 2020 14:00:49 GMT -6
I'm just learning how to play cello. I've been at it for three whole months now so of course I think I'm an expert. Anyway I picked up the thing and though I didn't really hear room for a lot of parts I managed to come up with this.. soundcloud.com/m57/mooneyes/s-iLBo5It's just a single line idea; keep or sweep, but it was a good little exercise for me. I don't even think it's where you were envisioning the instrument in the form.
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Post by indiehouse on Feb 9, 2020 15:44:57 GMT -6
I'm just learning how to play cello. I've been at it for three whole months now so of course I think I'm an expert. Anyway I picked up the thing and though I didn't really hear room for a lot of parts I managed to come up with this.. soundcloud.com/m57/mooneyes/s-iLBo5It's just a single line idea; keep or sweep, but it was a good little exercise for me. I don't even think it's where you were envisioning the instrument in the form. Wow man! Very cool! And nice job on the cello for only three months. Impressive. My gut was telling me that the cello should come in after that part. Kind of let that bridge part come in and be it’s own thing, not hitting all at once with the cello too. And I think I like the higher cello parts better. Maybe? Seems like the lower stuff took too much of my attention. Hmmm...is cello the right instrument? Or maybe it should be more of a quartet type, with the cello doing the lower stuff and violins doing the rest.
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Post by indiehouse on Feb 9, 2020 15:46:07 GMT -6
This is going to also be interesting to see how feedback is going to work when hiring a session player.
The local guy I’ve been in contact with will compose in GarageBand to work out the parts and get any feedback/changes so that everything is worked out before tracking. That actually seems pretty efficient.
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Post by M57 on Feb 9, 2020 16:24:37 GMT -6
And I think I like the higher cello parts better. Maybe? Seems like the lower stuff took too much of my attention. Hmmm...is cello the right instrument? Or maybe it should be more of a quartet type, with the cello doing the lower stuff and violins doing the rest. It's the first time I've tried to record myself playing, and though it may be on the thick side, I'm liking the sound. If you think it's too heavy, maybe what you're looking for is more in the viola range. I used a Blackspade LDC at ~ 14" pointed a few inches below one of the F holes with about 3-5 db of Warm WA-2A compression on the way in. I doubled the part, which was necessary given my playing (2 flats definitely made it more challenging ;} , panned the better take hotter and a little left of center, with the other take a little harder to the right smoothing things out and creating extra depth. Thanks for the compliment. I'd had about a half dozen lessons, which has been huge, and been practicing at least an hour a day. Though I had to comp things here and there to get it to sound decent, I'm encouraged that this DIY songwriter will be able to play on some of his own tracks soon.
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Post by drbill on Feb 9, 2020 17:36:47 GMT -6
Just my perspective, but if I'm paying $100 per hour for a session player, I wouldn't expect that they would need to work out parts in advance and charge me for that. For $100 per hour, I can get top chair LA talent who come up with amazing parts right off the cuff while I'm sitting there - or now with everyone owning their own studio, guys who will do it remotely with 1-3 revisions if I need them. Honestly, I've hired players for 3+ decades and never paid anyone to work out parts ahead of time. Sounds like a money grab or a dude that can't create quality parts on the spot to me. I would ask him to do it off the cuff at the session, and if he WANTS to work on it ahead of time, fine - it's on his dime. If he can't come up with creative, great parts right out of the gate at the session, then he is not worth the $100 per hour. As for his studio : Garage band, SM57/AT3035, Presonus...... I'd never record a cello with either or those mics, and doubtful with a Presonus. And Garage Band is not exactly what I expect from someone charging $100 per hour. Doesn't sound pro to me, but certainly asking pro rates.... The more I think about it, the more I think you are getting scammed. There are tons of guys who would be more than happy to make $100 an hour and not charge for revisions or "composing". This is the day of FaceTime / Skype. It's easier than ever to make great creative decisions remotely. My $0.02 PS - anyone doing remote sessions for people as a normal part of their gig should be using a standardized DAW (not Garage Band) and source-connect so that creative decisions via remote access can be made instantly. I'm pretty sure the client software is free, and only the studio needs to pay for their copy. I might be off on the free for client though.... Still, I wouldn't use his studio with that gear. As a note, I've been involved in big Eastern European orchestral sessions using it and it works without a flaw. High bandwidth, listening right inside your DAW with your monitoring in your studio.
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Post by Guitar on Feb 9, 2020 17:45:52 GMT -6
AT3035 is a very neutral condenser, maybe even a tiny bit dark. Not too much low end, just a lot of flat mids. A touch on the grainy side. I've never tried it on Cello though but I expect it would sound "fine." It's pretty good on a male voice for $100. Probably not as good as what most of us would have though.
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Post by M57 on Feb 9, 2020 17:49:24 GMT -6
As for his studio : Garage band, SM57/AT3035, Presonus...... I'd never record a cello with either or those mics, and doubtful with a Presonus. And Garage Band is not exactly what I expect from someone charging $100 per hour. I just assumed that the hired player offered to create the arrangement using Garageband strings (and not record them), just to make sure that the general idea of the arrangement was in the ballpark. Regardless, I agree that it does seem a bit hack to to be using the equipment described, but on the other hand it doesn't surprise me that a string player might not have an abundance of recording studio tech savvy. Bottom line: You either like the arrangement and the playing or you don't. If you can't see past the quality of the recording of the demo, it's your loss. Oh.. wait! If this is a remote session, then something doesn't seem right. Was my initial assumption right?
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Post by drbill on Feb 9, 2020 17:56:39 GMT -6
As for his studio : Garage band, SM57/AT3035, Presonus...... I'd never record a cello with either or those mics, and doubtful with a Presonus. And Garage Band is not exactly what I expect from someone charging $100 per hour. I just assumed that the hired player offered to create the arrangement using Garageband strings (and not record them), just to make sure that the general idea of the arrangement was in the ballpark. Agree that it does seem a bit hack to to be using the equipment described, but on the other hand it doesn't surprise me that a string player might not have an abundance of recording studio tech savvy. First, the term "compose" throws a red flag up right out of the gate for me. That is not composing, it's arranging. Second red flag is the price and the gear. He may be amazing. But if so, I'd expect him to be using something a little more high end commensurate with the price charged. That said, if the song requires a legit arrangement, then sure, $150 is fair. But these days, for a SINGLE musician, I'm probably not going to create a legit arrangement unless I know exactly what I want played. I would never hire a quartet without a previously laid out arrangement, but for a solo cellist? Absolutely. Anyone worth their salt should be able to come in and nail multiple parts that complement the song with ease. My perspective. As an aside, I almost always know pretty much exactly what I want, so I'll either talk the musician through it or write out some parts if needed. If it's multiple players, there are specific parts already arranged (unless a rhythm section - who might just get a chord chart). But if it's a solo player (as this seems to be), I enjoy the collaborative process of working it out on the fly. That is providing they are competent. I certainly have been caught off guard some times....
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Post by drbill on Feb 9, 2020 18:27:34 GMT -6
PS - in retrospect, after thinking about it some more, I came to realize that this thread was titled "session musician rates" - not how much is a string arrangement. The two are (IMO) very different things. I suppose indiehouse needs to access whether or not he needs a legit multi-piece arrangement or not.
Solo-istic musician playing "in the band" vs. legit 3/4 piece string arrangement.
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Post by indiehouse on Feb 9, 2020 18:42:02 GMT -6
Just my perspective, but if I'm paying $100 per hour for a session player, I wouldn't expect that they would need to work out parts in advance and charge me for that. For $100 per hour, I can get top chair LA talent who come up with amazing parts right off the cuff while I'm sitting there - or now with everyone owning their own studio, guys who will do it remotely with 1-3 revisions if I need them. Honestly, I've hired players for 3+ decades and never paid anyone to work out parts ahead of time. Sounds like a money grab or a dude that can't create quality parts on the spot to me. I would ask him to do it off the cuff at the session, and if he WANTS to work on it ahead of time, fine - it's on his dime. If he can't come up with creative, great parts right out of the gate at the session, then he is not worth the $100 per hour. As for his studio : Garage band, SM57/AT3035, Presonus...... I'd never record a cello with either or those mics, and doubtful with a Presonus. And Garage Band is not exactly what I expect from someone charging $100 per hour. Doesn't sound pro to me, but certainly asking pro rates.... The more I think about it, the more I think you are getting scammed. There are tons of guys who would be more than happy to make $100 an hour and not charge for revisions or "composing". This is the day of FaceTime / Skype. It's easier than ever to make great creative decisions remotely. My $0.02 PS - anyone doing remote sessions for people as a normal part of their gig should be using a standardized DAW (not Garage Band) and source-connect so that creative decisions via remote access can be made instantly. I'm pretty sure the client software is free, and only the studio needs to pay for their copy. I might be off on the free for client though.... Still, I wouldn't use his studio with that gear. As a note, I've been involved in big Eastern European orchestral sessions using it and it works without a flaw. High bandwidth, listening right inside your DAW with your monitoring in your studio. Yeah, his home studio setup is not super impressive. But, I’ve got nicer gear than most of the “studios” around here, so maybe my standard is too high. That’s kind of my hesitation for taking my friend up on his offer to track at the studio he works out of. I’ve got waaay better gear, but the best I can do in terms of a tracking room is an uber dead one. Anyways, the local guy has the credentials. He’s a doctoral student here at Ohio State (music), teaches and is super involved in the “cello” community. Here he is solo: and here is a track he’s played on for another artist. Kind of the cello vibe I’m going for: stormymonday has offered to track a cello player. So I’d be working remotely vs locally. That’s very cool of him and I’m considering going that route. I’m seeing if he can shoot me some samples. you think that composing shouldn’t be a separate fee then?
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Post by Guitar on Feb 9, 2020 19:04:24 GMT -6
yeah, he's good for sure. I was impressed.
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Post by notneeson on Feb 9, 2020 19:46:28 GMT -6
I think an awesome cellist I know lives in MA. Where are you again?
Here he is 15 years ago with my old band:
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2020 20:32:31 GMT -6
What are some typical session musician rates? I know this is going to vary wildly depending on location and player. I’m looking into hiring my first session musician, a cellist. He’s asking 150 for composing and 100/hr for recording. Does this seem reasonable or high? He’s good. I have seen a website that has tons of musicians available working independently wanting to do it for dirt cheap. I just recall the name
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Post by Vincent R. on Feb 9, 2020 20:44:34 GMT -6
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Post by Vincent R. on Feb 9, 2020 21:33:17 GMT -6
Sounds nice. Personally I hear a string quartet or even a small string section at times, not just a cello. if you need a string arranger/orchestrator I can’t recommend anyone more than humblecomposer. He may even know some players out here in NY who can help.
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Post by drbill on Feb 9, 2020 21:57:33 GMT -6
Just my perspective, but if I'm paying $100 per hour for a session player, I wouldn't expect that they would need to work out parts in advance and charge me for that. For $100 per hour, I can get top chair LA talent who come up with amazing parts right off the cuff while I'm sitting there - or now with everyone owning their own studio, guys who will do it remotely with 1-3 revisions if I need them. Honestly, I've hired players for 3+ decades and never paid anyone to work out parts ahead of time. Sounds like a money grab or a dude that can't create quality parts on the spot to me. I would ask him to do it off the cuff at the session, and if he WANTS to work on it ahead of time, fine - it's on his dime. If he can't come up with creative, great parts right out of the gate at the session, then he is not worth the $100 per hour. As for his studio : Garage band, SM57/AT3035, Presonus...... I'd never record a cello with either or those mics, and doubtful with a Presonus. And Garage Band is not exactly what I expect from someone charging $100 per hour. Doesn't sound pro to me, but certainly asking pro rates.... The more I think about it, the more I think you are getting scammed. There are tons of guys who would be more than happy to make $100 an hour and not charge for revisions or "composing". This is the day of FaceTime / Skype. It's easier than ever to make great creative decisions remotely. My $0.02 PS - anyone doing remote sessions for people as a normal part of their gig should be using a standardized DAW (not Garage Band) and source-connect so that creative decisions via remote access can be made instantly. I'm pretty sure the client software is free, and only the studio needs to pay for their copy. I might be off on the free for client though.... Still, I wouldn't use his studio with that gear. As a note, I've been involved in big Eastern European orchestral sessions using it and it works without a flaw. High bandwidth, listening right inside your DAW with your monitoring in your studio. you think that composing shouldn’t be a separate fee then? There is no composing. That's called an arrangement, and yes it should be a separate fee. But by definition, hiring a session player by the hour comes with the implicit concept that they bring a creative source to the recording. Unless your song NEEDS a written down arrangement for multiple players to be able to play simultaneously together - I have no idea either way - you shouldn't have to pay your session player to figure out what he's going to play before he gets to a session. That's crazy talk. It's what a session is all about. Figuring out the arrangement on the spot and playing it. BUT, that generally is a huge time and money soak if you have a section of strings or even a quartet waiting to play. THAT'S the deciding factor as to whether you need an arrangement or not. One guy - wing it - it's why you're hiring him. Duet, Quartet or larger - get your arrangement DIALED in before the session. And BTW, academia means nothing to me. I'd rather hire a creative player who loves the tune and who is inspired over an academic genius. Not passing judgement either way on your guy. Didn't have time to be in the studio to listen to the videos. From my perspective - until you decide what kind of section (Duet, Quartet, Chamber, or full section), soloist, double tracked vibe solo guy, you're wasting your money and will probably not hit whatever goal you're shooting for.
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Post by drbill on Feb 9, 2020 22:15:44 GMT -6
Listened to "just stay". Nothing impressed me about that string arrangement. Sorry. From my perspective. A lot of missed opportunity IMO, but I wasn't there, and have no idea what the artist / producer wanted so.... I really can't comment with anything helpful.
Listened to the Bach Prelude. He can obviously play, but that doesn't make him a good arranger or a great session guy. Two very different worlds. Unless you want to record some classical pieces that is.... I'd be looking at "just stay" to see if he delivers what you want/need.
Good luck on your project. The more you pull into what you specifically want, the closer you will get to what it is you're looking for, and the more happy you will be with it when it's all said and done. Again, good luck! Sometimes it just takes trying and falling short to really find what it is you want. Cheers, bp
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Post by christopher on Feb 9, 2020 22:27:58 GMT -6
I didn’t read the whole thread. If you can find a real session guy/woman online go that route. I mostly want to vent. I’ve only worked with a couple string musicians. Both were exceptionally talented, one was recruited from halfway around the world to play in the SF symphony. But they were not great session artists. Not good at playing in pitch other than concert pitch. I wasted a good 8 hours editing and trying to auto tune before giving up. The other thing was they weren’t able to play by ear, which is required for arranging ideas in your head, or figuring out ideas you might hum to them. Have to write your idea in correct notation. Food for thought, I hope your experience is awesome and definately better than this. Just wanted to vent, sorry..
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Post by jeremygillespie on Feb 9, 2020 23:07:48 GMT -6
I didn’t read the whole thread. If you can find a real session guy/woman online go that route. I mostly want to vent. I’ve only worked with a couple string musicians. Both were exceptionally talented, one was recruited from halfway around the world to play in the SF symphony. But they were not great session artists. Not good at playing in pitch other than concert pitch. I wasted a good 8 hours editing and trying to auto tune before giving up. The other thing was they weren’t able to play by ear, which is required for arranging ideas in your head, or figuring out ideas you might hum to them. Have to write your idea in correct notation. Food for thought, I hope your experience is awesome and definately better than this. Just wanted to vent, sorry.. I ran into that situation about 7 years ago while recording a Christmas album. The artist wanted a solo violin to play the melody of silent night and the player requested notation. I said, you don’t know the song? She said she did know the song but that she needed it notated in order to play it. Walked back into the control room, scribbled it out real quick by memory and walked into the live room and handed it to her. I had one of the notes as a # instead of a natral and she played it as written. After the pass she asked if she was finished and I almost lost it. Re-wrote the part, got it right, and NEVER called her again. After some years I’ve found a few fantastic players. I generally arrange the parts in EW Strings, send them the solo instruments, and also in the track, and I get back the parts I wrote and also some takes with improvision on it that are usually much better than what I wrote. It makes the process a joy.
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Post by stormymondays on Feb 10, 2020 3:24:51 GMT -6
How much do you guys typically pay for drum tracks/sessions? Per song, per hour?
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Post by M57 on Feb 10, 2020 5:47:49 GMT -6
>>It's what a session is all about. Figuring out the arrangement on the spot and playing it.<< >>And BTW, academia means nothing to me. I'd rather hire a creative player who loves the tune and who is inspired over an academic genius<< No question in my mind ^^ this ^^ is sage advice. I don't have that much recording experience with other musicians in the room, but the few times that I have, I've found that creative players who understand and feel the music are vastly preferable to technicians and academic types. My concern is that the "in the moment" paradigm for creativity goes somewhat contrary to the current and evolving trend of working with remote musicians. It certainly puts stress on the process. You're not there in the room, so feedback and direction has to be very clear, especially if you're dealing with the prospect of one or two revisions. Cross my fingers, so far I've been fortunate with most of my remote experiences, and on both sides of the equation. For instance, on the player side, I've played and sang on a number of tracks for Martin John Butler ( Martin John Butler ), and he's been exceptional at communicating what he wants. On the hiring side (and thanks to one of drbill's recommendations), I've had a fantastic experience working with a remote drummer who just delivers. I've never needed more than one revision. On the other hand, I've had experiences where the synergy wasn't quite there, and I've learned to be able to tell if it's going to be a total bust right out of the blocks. It's no fun for anyone when everyone is spinning their wheels.
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Post by M57 on Feb 10, 2020 8:16:14 GMT -6
How much do you guys typically pay for drum tracks/sessions? Per song, per hour? ..for the player to show up and play, or for a remote session?
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Post by avgatzeblouz on Feb 10, 2020 8:24:18 GMT -6
you think that composing shouldn’t be a separate fee then? There is no composing. That's called an arrangement, and yes it should be a separate fee. But by definition, hiring a session player by the hour comes with the implicit concept that they bring a creative source to the recording. Unless your song NEEDS a written down arrangement for multiple players to be able to play simultaneously together - I have no idea either way - you shouldn't have to pay your session player to figure out what he's going to play before he gets to a session. That's crazy talk. It's what a session is all about. Figuring out the arrangement on the spot and playing it. BUT, that generally is a huge time and money soak if you have a section of strings or even a quartet waiting to play. THAT'S the deciding factor as to whether you need an arrangement or not. One guy - wing it - it's why you're hiring him. Duet, Quartet or larger - get your arrangement DIALED in before the session. And BTW, academia means nothing to me. I'd rather hire a creative player who loves the tune and who is inspired over an academic genius. Not passing judgement either way on your guy. Didn't have time to be in the studio to listen to the videos. From my perspective - until you decide what kind of section (Duet, Quartet, Chamber, or full section), soloist, double tracked vibe solo guy, you're wasting your money and will probably not hit whatever goal you're shooting for. Yep, DrBill nailed it. Exactly my thoughts and my experience as well.
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Post by stormymondays on Feb 10, 2020 8:25:17 GMT -6
How much do you guys typically pay for drum tracks/sessions? Per song, per hour? ..for the player to show up and play, or for a remote session? Both cases would be useful info for me!
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