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Post by svart on Jan 21, 2020 10:27:06 GMT -6
9.25% here in Nashville definitely hurts, and at least for me it’s slowed down my Reverb sales. I’ve been buying a lot of stuff from Front End Audio, no sales tax and I can usually get something brand new for what it would cost used with tax from eBay or Reverb. Hmmm. People should check with me before they buy. Yes they should. You get good prices.
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Post by soundintheround on Jan 21, 2020 11:00:07 GMT -6
Love the responses I'm not trying to say I am a..... "get all yer guns together and lets go hunker down with an armed militia at a refuge in Oregon"... type of guy. But just saying this new Tax thing (on top of the shipping) makes it hard to justify gear purchases as much as it used to on these platforms. I totally get how back in the 90's and even early 2000's deals on vintage gear was much easier to get. But even if you did go out and buy an original Urei 1176 a year ago on eBay for a "deal" (say $1800).....you would just have to factor in shipping and fees if you changed your mind and wanted to sell it. Maybe I could sell it for closer to $2,000 and come out somewhat even. But now tack on Taxes and it changes the story for me. Bring on the Classified Forums! Down with eBay, down with Reverb! Let's get a new 'Paypal' that works on 1% fees for all Audio gear.
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Post by jamiesego on Jan 21, 2020 11:00:16 GMT -6
“Government can only ride on the back of capitalism, siphoning off income from those who make things”
Some would say “Capitalism can only ride on the back of Labour, siphoning off income from those who make things”
It’s a nuanced subject in my opinion and I’m not going to claim to be an authority.
In regards to the original question I haven’t seen many amazing deals on used studio gear in the last few years and the state taxes have definitely moved some things just out of my price range. Most of the things I bought last year were new.
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Post by soundintheround on Jan 21, 2020 11:06:52 GMT -6
People mentioned the Front End Audio thing which I didn't know about.... thanks!
One other thing I have found to work pretty well is buying gear directly from say a boutique manufacture, whom is overseas. Been getting some pretty awesome deals lately that way, especially with the current exchange rates on the dollar.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 21, 2020 14:55:33 GMT -6
You should be paying sales tax on anything you buy online, so I'm not clear on how that impacts what people are charging on a deal/no deal for used stuff. The two decades of states not collecting sales tax revenue have really hit services that people need, so I'm not gonna bitch about that change. Hopefully some brick and mortar store jobs will start to come back too. (Sorry if this is too political, but you guys are talking about it.) I do think ebay and reverb started a trend of sellers becoming more savvy to understanding how much they ought to at least try to get. It's why I'm super selective with what I buy and why I have so much less gear than what I see being talked about on this page. LOL Actually that's a bit of an oversimplification. Tax should not be charged on non-commercial sales in the US. The problem for the big commercial sales platforms is differentiation between who is and who isn't a commercial dealer. IMO there should be a cap on the number of sales/listings one vendor is allowed before taxes and commercial surcharges kick in, but below that limit people should not be liable for taxes.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 21, 2020 15:04:25 GMT -6
Good old days? For a few years after Ebay started, yes, good days but short lived. Audio gear in particular was still in the digital renaissance and everyone was dumping analog stuff. Ebay was more like a digital yard sale and people just wanted to get rid of things that they might be able to sell and since there was no real gauge for what a used piece of gear was worth, people just put things up for crazy cheap. It had yet to become the way we define what a used *thing* is worth, but it did so within a few years as people would bid things up to a point where the demand wouldn't support the price and then you had your new "worth" of the item based on the supply available. As people snapped up the deals, the prices went up due to the lower supplies. However, as everyone and their mothers have figured out how to turn ebay into a true commerce site, everyone both starts there and references it for pricing. This has built a stable used-price structure for most things people want to buy. It's also unfortunately all but killed the "good deal" and now you just get the going price for something. It's also created unicorns out of items too. I remember seeing original 1176's going for 300-400$ back in the late 90's. Now you can't get a used original for 2000$ and clones are going for 600-800$ on name alone. That's a real bummer too, because I knew back then they were worth more but being a new graduate, being dirt-poor and sometimes living out of my car, I had almost no money to eat, let alone buy audio gear. Would have been a great investment if someone had the cash and a place to store them for 20 years. But then again, you have Reverb, where everything is priced 20% higher than ebay, but at least it's available because nobody is paying those prices.. But I don't think you wanted to know about that stuff. It sounds like you wanted to know about taxes.. I do find it funny in a very "I gotta laugh or I'm going to cry" kind of way. Every single thing is taxed at every stage of it's development. They tax the land the materials are mined on, they tax the labor to mine the materials, they tax the income of the people employed to do the mining, they tax the amounts of materials recovered, they tax the machines used to mine, the gas for the machines, the parts for the machines, the transport of the materials, the buildings and property to store the materials, the machines and labor used to turn the materials into something usable like sheet metal. This happens for every step of the way, perhaps hundreds of steps, all taxed. Every single stage of every piece is taxed from the moment someone takes raw materials from the ground, to the point where it's sold on ebay as used gear that's many years old. If you add up all the taxes levied on every stage of some product's life, the taxes equal many hundred times what the original purchaser paid, and what the economy determines something worth through supply and demand. Why? Because the government can't balance the budgets. They have zero accountability to anyone to make things efficient and cost effective, unlike the supply-and-demand economy can. Government can only ride on the back of capitalism, siphoning off income from those who make things, but they have the ability to jail you for not paying up, so most folks just render unto Caesar to avoid the government threats. Their solution is to always tax more. 6% is just the start. I remember when my local sales tax was 4%. It's now 8% with an additional 1% SPLOST in some areas, and additional 15-25% vice taxes on beer/liquor/ciggys because they know that people aren't going to bat an eye on a couple more percent if it's on their vices. But that's how they get you. Small, incremental changes over time so that you are only mildly put-off, but not so much that you start dumping tea in the harbors, but also, your kids will be born into a world with so many taxes that it's just "normal" for them. Meanwhile, with everything taxed to kingdom-come, we're still 23 Trillion in debt. And meanwhile a tiny minority is paying no taxes at all while making millions of dollars a day (for doing essentially nothing useful.)
The problem isn't taxes, it's tax inequality.
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Post by svart on Jan 21, 2020 15:11:06 GMT -6
Good old days? For a few years after Ebay started, yes, good days but short lived. Audio gear in particular was still in the digital renaissance and everyone was dumping analog stuff. Ebay was more like a digital yard sale and people just wanted to get rid of things that they might be able to sell and since there was no real gauge for what a used piece of gear was worth, people just put things up for crazy cheap. It had yet to become the way we define what a used *thing* is worth, but it did so within a few years as people would bid things up to a point where the demand wouldn't support the price and then you had your new "worth" of the item based on the supply available. As people snapped up the deals, the prices went up due to the lower supplies. However, as everyone and their mothers have figured out how to turn ebay into a true commerce site, everyone both starts there and references it for pricing. This has built a stable used-price structure for most things people want to buy. It's also unfortunately all but killed the "good deal" and now you just get the going price for something. It's also created unicorns out of items too. I remember seeing original 1176's going for 300-400$ back in the late 90's. Now you can't get a used original for 2000$ and clones are going for 600-800$ on name alone. That's a real bummer too, because I knew back then they were worth more but being a new graduate, being dirt-poor and sometimes living out of my car, I had almost no money to eat, let alone buy audio gear. Would have been a great investment if someone had the cash and a place to store them for 20 years. But then again, you have Reverb, where everything is priced 20% higher than ebay, but at least it's available because nobody is paying those prices.. But I don't think you wanted to know about that stuff. It sounds like you wanted to know about taxes.. I do find it funny in a very "I gotta laugh or I'm going to cry" kind of way. Every single thing is taxed at every stage of it's development. They tax the land the materials are mined on, they tax the labor to mine the materials, they tax the income of the people employed to do the mining, they tax the amounts of materials recovered, they tax the machines used to mine, the gas for the machines, the parts for the machines, the transport of the materials, the buildings and property to store the materials, the machines and labor used to turn the materials into something usable like sheet metal. This happens for every step of the way, perhaps hundreds of steps, all taxed. Every single stage of every piece is taxed from the moment someone takes raw materials from the ground, to the point where it's sold on ebay as used gear that's many years old. If you add up all the taxes levied on every stage of some product's life, the taxes equal many hundred times what the original purchaser paid, and what the economy determines something worth through supply and demand. Why? Because the government can't balance the budgets. They have zero accountability to anyone to make things efficient and cost effective, unlike the supply-and-demand economy can. Government can only ride on the back of capitalism, siphoning off income from those who make things, but they have the ability to jail you for not paying up, so most folks just render unto Caesar to avoid the government threats. Their solution is to always tax more. 6% is just the start. I remember when my local sales tax was 4%. It's now 8% with an additional 1% SPLOST in some areas, and additional 15-25% vice taxes on beer/liquor/ciggys because they know that people aren't going to bat an eye on a couple more percent if it's on their vices. But that's how they get you. Small, incremental changes over time so that you are only mildly put-off, but not so much that you start dumping tea in the harbors, but also, your kids will be born into a world with so many taxes that it's just "normal" for them. Meanwhile, with everything taxed to kingdom-come, we're still 23 Trillion in debt. And meanwhile a tiny minority is paying no taxes at all while making millions of dollars a day (for doing essentially nothing useful.)
The problem isn't taxes, it's tax inequality.
And if you look at the facts objectively, they generally either have tax deferrals, have prepaid taxes, or otherwise have no "income" because their "billions" are tied up in company stocks and are otherwise not liquid. But nobody ever let a few facts get in the way of a good boogeyman story.
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Post by svart on Jan 21, 2020 15:23:40 GMT -6
“Government can only ride on the back of capitalism, siphoning off income from those who make things” Some would say “Capitalism can only ride on the back of Labour, siphoning off income from those who make things” It’s a nuanced subject in my opinion and I’m not going to claim to be an authority. In regards to the original question I haven’t seen many amazing deals on used studio gear in the last few years and the state taxes have definitely moved some things just out of my price range. Most of the things I bought last year were new. Capitalism is at it's basest levels the act of using your labor to gain things you need, but through the proxy of money. In today's world, the shoemaker doesn't have to make shoes for the guy baking bread in order to eat. We can do any type of labor, for anyone, at any time and we use "money" as the proxy of our labor so we can then exchange the proxy in lieu of our labor for any goods or services we need or desire wherever we go. The difference is that we can choose how to work, where to work, when to work, how much we want to work, etc, and the ramifications are up to you as an extension of free will. With taxation, we're told what we're going to pay and if you choose not to, you're harassed, jailed and ultimate ruined. Quite a bit different.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 21, 2020 15:46:22 GMT -6
And meanwhile a tiny minority is paying no taxes at all while making millions of dollars a day (for doing essentially nothing useful.)
The problem isn't taxes, it's tax inequality.
And if you look at the facts objectively, they generally either have tax deferrals, have prepaid taxes, or otherwise have no "income" because their "billions" are tied up in company stocks and are otherwise not liquid. But nobody ever let a few facts get in the way of a good boogeyman story. Yes, the rich have very well prepared tax havens. Furthermore the way the laws are slanted they don't pay taxes on "wealth" so they pay nothing on value generated by just sitting around, accrueing, at least not until it gets converted into a "liquid" form.
Meanwhile it's us poor working stiffs who get stuck carrying their fair share of the burden.
I don't understand why the richest members of society get a free pass for "legal" cheating. It's not like they wouldn't still have more money than anybody could ever need - or spend (unless they went into the music business....)
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 21, 2020 16:01:04 GMT -6
“Government can only ride on the back of capitalism, siphoning off income from those who make things” Some would say “Capitalism can only ride on the back of Labour, siphoning off income from those who make things” It’s a nuanced subject in my opinion and I’m not going to claim to be an authority. In regards to the original question I haven’t seen many amazing deals on used studio gear in the last few years and the state taxes have definitely moved some things just out of my price range. Most of the things I bought last year were new. Capitalism is at it's basest levels the act of using your labor to gain things you need, but through the proxy of money. In today's world, the shoemaker doesn't have to make shoes for the guy baking bread in order to eat. We can do any type of labor, for anyone, at any time and we use "money" as the proxy of our labor so we can then exchange the proxy in lieu of our labor for any goods or services we need or desire wherever we go. The difference is that we can choose how to work, where to work, when to work, how much we want to work, etc, and the ramifications are up to you as an extension of free will. With taxation, we're told what we're going to pay and if you choose not to, you're harassed, jailed and ultimate ruined. Quite a bit different. Two words - Social Responsibility.
And if you're "ultimately ruined" it's because you're being forced to pay the shares of the people who don't pay for anything.
Tell me - what does a Hedge Fund actually contribute to society?
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Post by svart on Jan 21, 2020 16:08:29 GMT -6
And if you look at the facts objectively, they generally either have tax deferrals, have prepaid taxes, or otherwise have no "income" because their "billions" are tied up in company stocks and are otherwise not liquid. But nobody ever let a few facts get in the way of a good boogeyman story. Yes, the rich have very well prepared tax havens. Furthermore the way the laws are slanted they don't pay taxes on "wealth" so they pay nothing on value generated by just sitting around, accrueing, at least not until it gets converted into a "liquid" form.
Meanwhile it's us poor working stiffs who get stuck carrying their fair share of the burden.
I don't understand why the richest members of society get a free pass for "legal" cheating. It's not like they wouldn't still have more money than anybody could ever need - or spend (unless they went into the music business....)
By the IRS's own data, the top 2% pay 90% of the taxes in the USA. The middle class is certainly not burdened in comparison. I'll leave this be at this point because I feel my blood getting up and I don't want to argue or make this turn negative.
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Post by jamiesego on Jan 21, 2020 16:33:09 GMT -6
It's a complicated subject.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 21, 2020 17:22:16 GMT -6
It's a complicated subject. Of course that's totally skewed to favor the wealthy. Maybe the 2% pay more tax in gross amounts - which is in no way an accuirate measurement as it does not take into account accrued wealth, only taxable income. But even disregarding that, that 2% is paying a far lower percentage of their taxable income than anybody else. When you've got a billionaire who pays much less tax than the lowest secretary in his office something is seriously wrong. When you've got a mom who is working two "almost" full time jobs ("almost" because many major corporations cap employees' hours at 39 per week so they don't need to pay the tax rate and benefits required for full time employees) and still needs to apply for food stamps to feed her family and rich people who don't actually do any real work at all don't pay anmything at all on accrued wealt and capital gains on that wealthy something is really wrong.
Those stories about people working their asses off for earnings below the poverty line are not BS. Since being forced out of SF and having to move to the blue collar community of Fairfield I have come to know a number of these people. They work hard and you know something? Most of them are PROUD to pay their taxes - the taxes that those far more fortunate than themselves scoff at.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 21, 2020 17:25:42 GMT -6
Yes, the rich have very well prepared tax havens. Furthermore the way the laws are slanted they don't pay taxes on "wealth" so they pay nothing on value generated by just sitting around, accrueing, at least not until it gets converted into a "liquid" form.
Meanwhile it's us poor working stiffs who get stuck carrying their fair share of the burden.
I don't understand why the richest members of society get a free pass for "legal" cheating. It's not like they wouldn't still have more money than anybody could ever need - or spend (unless they went into the music business....)
By the IRS's own data, the top 2% pay 90% of the taxes in the USA. The middle class is certainly not burdened in comparison. I'll leave this be at this point because I feel my blood getting up and I don't want to argue or make this turn negative. I'll just leave this with the observation that a skilled statistician can make the numbers appear to mean almost anything, and the government has a vested interest in pandering to those who contribute huge sums to politicians who back their play.
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Post by jamiesego on Jan 21, 2020 17:32:19 GMT -6
It's a complicated subject. Of course that's totally skewed to favor the wealthy. Maybe the 2% pay more tax in gross amounts - which is in no way an accuirate measurement as it does not take into account accrued wealth, only taxable income. But even disregarding that, that 2% is paying a far lower percentage of their taxable income than anybody else. When you've got a billionaire who pays much less tax than the lowest secretary in his office something is seriously wrong. When you've got a mom who is working two "almost" full time jobs ("almost" because many major corporations cap employees' hours at 39 per week so they don't need to pay the tax rate and benefits required for full time employees) and still needs to apply for food stamps to feed her family and rich people who don't actually do any real work at all don't pay anmything at all on accrued wealt and capital gains on that wealthy something is really wrong.
Those stories about people working their asses off for earnings below the poverty line are not BS. Since being forced out of SF and having to move to the blue collar community of Fairfield I have come to know a number of these people. They work hard and you know something? Most of them are PROUD to pay their taxes - the taxes that those far more fortunate than themselves scoff at.
I agree with you. This video seems to be coming at the issue with a centrist perspective but still comes to the conclusion that the richest people pay the least percentage of tax.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 21, 2020 17:38:01 GMT -6
Of course that's totally skewed to favor the wealthy. Maybe the 2% pay more tax in gross amounts - which is in no way an accuirate measurement as it does not take into account accrued wealth, only taxable income. But even disregarding that, that 2% is paying a far lower percentage of their taxable income than anybody else. When you've got a billionaire who pays much less tax than the lowest secretary in his office something is seriously wrong. When you've got a mom who is working two "almost" full time jobs ("almost" because many major corporations cap employees' hours at 39 per week so they don't need to pay the tax rate and benefits required for full time employees) and still needs to apply for food stamps to feed her family and rich people who don't actually do any real work at all don't pay anmything at all on accrued wealt and capital gains on that wealthy something is really wrong.
Those stories about people working their asses off for earnings below the poverty line are not BS. Since being forced out of SF and having to move to the blue collar community of Fairfield I have come to know a number of these people. They work hard and you know something? Most of them are PROUD to pay their taxes - the taxes that those far more fortunate than themselves scoff at.
I agree with you. This video seems to be coming at the issue with a centrist perspective but still comes to the conclusion that the richest people pay the least percentage of tax. It's a clever propaganda video. It's designed to appear centrist but it's not.
Public relations people (AKA "spin doctors") have gotten quite good at constructing such things in these days of dumbed-down internet "communication", especially employing formats like this that make direct rebuttal difficult.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jan 21, 2020 20:20:32 GMT -6
I think most of my great deals buying on eBay was 7 years ago or longer. Got some great scores on vintage preamps that weren’t hip yet but were awesome (telefunken 676’s) and some great guitar amps that weren’t cool yet (Gibson Falcon). Also, a killer Wurlitzer branded snare drum from the 40’s that’s a dead ringer for the one Levon Helm used while recording the Band’s second album.
I haven’t seen anything that has amazed me in a while where I wanted to jump on it. Most of the things I’ve gotten lately were on local listings.
I don’t have an opinion on taxes other than I don’t like having to pay as much as I do, and I use every legal loophole possible to get away from it. Just like everybody else does!
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Post by lpedrum on Jan 22, 2020 12:34:35 GMT -6
Very good deals still exist on Ebay and Reverb. Thing is you just can't hop on once in a while hoping to stumble upon a deal. You have to scan auctions daily, ask questions, know what you're looking for, and be alert to something you might know nothing about and take a chance if the price is right. Plus, both eBay and Reverb often allow you to "make a deal" with the seller. I did that just yesterday on eBay and purchased an Electro-voice DO54 mic for $63 incl. taxes and shipping. If I simply bought from "red background guy" I would have spent upwards of $250 (mic buyers know who I'm speaking of.) Selling is a bit of a different story especially on larger items. I got burned last year selling and shipping a floor tom. But if I were to sell often I'd dig into the best ways of doing things.
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Post by soundintheround on Jan 23, 2020 22:33:16 GMT -6
Good deal or not, I just can’t get over the new tax thing. It feels like just throwing money away.
The other day I picked up an Eventide Eclipse (still not sure why, but convinced myself I needed a versatile multi-fix unit for an new project , and sold my H3000 years ago) ....but got one for $850. Seems like a good deal, but then with almost $100 of additional taxes and of course shipping it was close to being actually $1000 all said and done.
The good ol days are gone if you ask me.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 23, 2020 22:52:26 GMT -6
Facebook is the new Craigslist. I've sold 4 or 5 things in 18 months, posted ads everywhere, ALL of them sold through facebook's Marketplace.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2020 22:19:39 GMT -6
ebay rapes you for 10% fees, then paypal rapes u from the other end.
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Post by rowmat on Jan 25, 2020 2:20:53 GMT -6
Paypal also screws you on foreign currency change rates. ebay rapes you for 10% fees, then paypal rapes u from the other end.
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Post by saltyjames on Jan 25, 2020 6:42:56 GMT -6
Using Ebay and Paypay and Reverb etc to sell stuff in a close knit community such as audio engineering is financially ignorant. If you add up a few years of fees you could buy a pair of nice mics.
We should all be shopping on sites like RGO etc. It vets its posters (somewhat). Gearslutz has totally slutted out to the the big vendors (Ebay and Reverb) you don't even see the sellers info. It just transfers you direct to Ebay or Reverb now.
I believe we should not shop at amazon, wal mart, sweetwater, Guitard Center etc. These large retail machines destroy every other business AND they beat the shit out of vendors (asking them to sell their stuff uber cheap / make them compete with each other - which isn't evil or bad for pricing, but it can really be tough on a small shop that isn't set up for bulk orders and just can't afford to cut prices to compete with Warm Audio etc) . I saw what wal mart did to small towns. It was devastating. Amazon will do that to the whole country. I bought 24 DBX eq's for my console from Zen Pro he spoke to DBX and improved his rate with them and sold me the EQ's at the same discount I was getting from Sweetwater. And because I did wire transfer and not paypal or a card I got another nice discount that actually beat Sweetwater's deal!!
I post my sales here and on GS, FB, and CL and I do a wire transfer, or cash and not pay paypal, credit card. "But I have protection from Reverb, Ebay and Paypal". Nonsense. I got a refund from Stam (couldn't wait) and I would have got the money in 15 minutes, but Paypal held it for 7 days. And of course I paid them to do so. Ridiculous. I forgot to ask about wire transfer vs paypal. Every dealer / seller I talk to about this is cool and most love it as it saves fees.
Credit card fees are typically 3-5% I always get a flat 4-5%. Plus another % for not using Ebay, Reverb, Sweetwater etc.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 25, 2020 10:07:48 GMT -6
Hard truth is I list things at forum marketplaces and they take 2-3 years to sell. Email a list of people privately and it might be gone. Put them at ebay and they’re gone.
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Post by javamad on Jan 25, 2020 14:59:05 GMT -6
Paypal also screws you on foreign currency change rates. ebay rapes you for 10% fees, then paypal rapes u from the other end. Quick tip:: when Amazon or any merchant offers you to pay in your local currency always say NO. Let the charge come through onto your credit card in the original currency and the card scheme (Visa, Mastercard, etc) will give you a much better rate. I work in payments and all these big merchants have a side gig they call “FX Margin” where they add 3-5% to the day rate.
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