ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 14, 2020 9:56:14 GMT -6
So a couple of months ago an old friend who had loved his Quested H108’s ask, knowing that I was a fan of Rogers work, if I could design something like his H108’s with a little more sparkle. Well I accepted his challenge, but while I was struggling with the design of the crossover he decided to buy a pair of ATC SCM20’s! These never got built and and since I had problems with every crossover design I did I finally gave and had the folks at Solen design a Crossover using LEAP ( man I have to bite the bullet and jump on the next copy I find somebody selling). Since Solen designed the network I can’t sell this design so why not share the design as a RGO DIY ?
Anybody interested? I’ll try to Keep the build as simple as possible, the only cuts your home center won’t be able to do for you will be the circle cuts for the drivers and drilling for a connector cup. In this version the drivers will be flush mounted so no need to do any routing even if this will give it a DIY look, though I’ll calculate the cabinet dimensions based on routing for the drivers and simply have a block that will make up for the difference in volume. The fine folks at Solen will build the crossover for those who don’t want to solder for the cost of parts plus $30ea.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 14, 2020 11:25:49 GMT -6
This would be a complete diy kit, if crossover is done, do you have recommended drivers?
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jan 14, 2020 12:25:30 GMT -6
This would be a complete diy kit, if crossover is done, do you have recommended drivers? The drivers for this would be the Volt 228.8 woofer, this is the newer version of the 8in found in the H108 as well as most of the other Quested based on a 8in. Volt has been an OEM for many others including REL subs and PMC. Volt is sort of a compromise between the ultra low distortion of ATC and the demand for more extended LF. The thing about this drive is it performs well in cabinets designed for best LF low distortion, those designed for maximum LF extension and those designed as a compromise. The Tweeter is a hand built by a company called Transducer Labs. I haven’t used this version that uses a carbon fiber dome, I have used and love their mega buck Be dome. The Carbon is well regarded by many who I trust and the one model I heard that uses it was pretty impressive as was the price. The thing about this combination is that it will also work in a larger enclosure with different venting for a more extended LF. This won’t be a packaged, kit, first I don’t have the $ to buy and resell a bunch of drivers second the agreement for the x over design precludes that. It would be a parts list with sources. These are not cheap drivers, in fact if you were to purchase a pre built pair with drivers of this quality I would put them at $4-6K per pair retail.
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Post by dror520 on Jan 14, 2020 13:02:47 GMT -6
This sounds really interesting! I also have the H108 monitors. How would these compare? Also, do you think there is a reason to put the Volt 228.8 woofer in the H108? Would they improve the performance?
Thanks!
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jan 14, 2020 13:35:06 GMT -6
This sounds really interesting! I also have the H108 monitors. How would these compare? Also, do you think there is a reason to put the Volt 228.8 woofer in the H108? Would they improve the performance? Thanks! No I wouldn’t bother, in playing with the 228.8 I found you probably would need to modify the crossover and I didn’t find that much of a difference in the smaller cabinet, biggest difference was in a larger cabinet, plus your current LF just plain works either Morel Tweeter, in the crossover region I just wasn’t in love with the 228 and the Morel CAT or the newer version.
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Post by veggieryan on Jan 14, 2020 16:16:36 GMT -6
interested.
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Post by dror520 on Jan 14, 2020 20:56:20 GMT -6
This sounds really interesting! I also have the H108 monitors. How would these compare? Also, do you think there is a reason to put the Volt 228.8 woofer in the H108? Would they improve the performance? Thanks! No I wouldn’t bother, in playing with the 228.8 I found you probably would need to modify the crossover and I didn’t find that much of a difference in the smaller cabinet, biggest difference was in a larger cabinet, plus your current LF just plain works either Morel Tweeter, in the crossover region I just wasn’t in love with the 228 and the Morel CAT or the newer version. Thanks!! What does your friend think about the ATC SCM20s compared to the Quested H108?
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jan 16, 2020 13:01:22 GMT -6
No I wouldn’t bother, in playing with the 228.8 I found you probably would need to modify the crossover and I didn’t find that much of a difference in the smaller cabinet, biggest difference was in a larger cabinet, plus your current LF just plain works either Morel Tweeter, in the crossover region I just wasn’t in love with the 228 and the Morel CAT or the newer version. Thanks!! What does your friend think about the ATC SCM20s compared to the Quested H108? Sorry been trying to relax as my pancreatitis is acting up so I’m late to reply. This is a bit of his impression and mine combined. They are very different, the new ATC tweeter is a much more transparent driver than the Morel, and for what it would cost if they sold it as an OEM it should be. It was also voiced and designed from the ground up to mesh with ATC’s other drivers so for a 2 way they are probably among the most consistent top to bottom. The Questeds I believe go a bit lower and the Volt is one of the few drivers where the ultra Low distortion of the ATC isn’t a complete deal breaker. Now all of these things can be a mixed bag in the real world. The 20’s are amazing but they always make me hunger for the bigger ATC’s with the S mid or the Volt mid. The ATC 20’s are probably one of the best near field tracking monitors, they show pretty much all the warts, like in theory mains should, sometimes this can be really discouraging because they show a lot more of how much you suck. For mixing rock and video work he bought a pair of old Event 20/20bas, the ATC’s translate pretty well but the H108’s could be thought of as a reference Quality monitor and yet translated better as an every mans speaker plus the 108’s were easier to mate with a single sub ( an older REL with line level in and Volt driver). He uses his car system more as a reference now and is considering buying a pair of used Questeds and keeping his ATC’s.
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Post by dror520 on Jan 17, 2020 9:06:29 GMT -6
Thanks for your detailed answer!
Is the active version of the SCM20s better than the passive version in your opinion?
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Post by mhbunch on Jan 17, 2020 12:05:45 GMT -6
Interested!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2020 15:18:02 GMT -6
A Quested H108 with a much more transparent and sturdier tweeter would be great. Those Volt 8" doped paper woofers are awesome but the Morel tweeters have always been iffy and easy to make even worse with damage from distortion, plugin crashes, pops, and tweaking full scale high gain guitars. Even when new, the tweeter just isn't true though. There's not a lot you can buy that's entirely truthful. There are a few "half-true" and very usable things like the best of JBL and Dynaudio but I haven't found much at the price point in between the Yamaha HS8 and bass-less ATC SCM20ASL that presents truthful mids and treble. The KRK V6S4 is about it for current production stuff you can buy in the USA. Geithains and Hedds are almost impossible to get here with a return policy.
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Post by svart on Feb 26, 2020 15:57:27 GMT -6
I've been dabbling in waveguides recently and rethinking my plans for speakers.. I have some small 3/4 dome tweeters that I had intended on putting in waveguides since 3/4 domes have better dispersion naturally, and waveguides also naturally help with the transition between tweeter and woofer dispersion.
However, I've run into a few issues, namely needing to buy a measurement setup since neither the tweeter, nor the mid-woofer I wanted to use have any existing FRD/ZMA files available that I could find to model some proto-crossovers.
I've also found a few speakers that closely resemble almost exactly what I had envisioned, and between the cost of setting up a measurement array, the time to build the boxes, model the crossovers, buy the parts, do the measurements and tweak, I'm already over half the cost of buying the speakers ready-made and without the hassle.
One thing I will say, I have absolutely found that I do NOT like metal domed tweeters and small metal-coned midranges. There is something impossible about their breakup nodes that requires a lot of crossover work to flatten, but also results in creating regions of lifelessness. DSP might snuff these better and without so much phase problems, but this is also an expensive avenue to start down.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2020 12:00:57 GMT -6
I've been dabbling in waveguides recently and rethinking my plans for speakers.. I have some small 3/4 dome tweeters that I had intended on putting in waveguides since 3/4 domes have better dispersion naturally, and waveguides also naturally help with the transition between tweeter and woofer dispersion. However, I've run into a few issues, namely needing to buy a measurement setup since neither the tweeter, nor the mid-woofer I wanted to use have any existing FRD/ZMA files available that I could find to model some proto-crossovers. I've also found a few speakers that closely resemble almost exactly what I had envisioned, and between the cost of setting up a measurement array, the time to build the boxes, model the crossovers, buy the parts, do the measurements and tweak, I'm already over half the cost of buying the speakers ready-made and without the hassle. One thing I will say, I have absolutely found that I do NOT like metal domed tweeters and small metal-coned midranges. There is something impossible about their breakup nodes that requires a lot of crossover work to flatten, but also results in creating regions of lifelessness. DSP might snuff these better and without so much phase problems, but this is also an expensive avenue to start down. Be careful with the waveguide crossovers. All of the crazy computer modeled ones I've tried have gross hornflare. Many manufacturers just use the waveguides to crossover drivers that should not be crossed over to each other in an accurate monitor rather to improve dispersion. The responsiveness of the crossover regions is poor on all the JBL and Neumanns because they're crossed over to a piece of plastic that simply boosts the response of the driver.
When the Neumann KH120 came out, I remember it was super hyped up on GS and K&H before was like what Geithain is now but mostly concentrated in the broadcast market. I heard the 120 compared to the original Dynaudio BM6a and wondered what the hell everybody was excited about. The crossover response dip (FR with pink noise means nothing here despite clueless redditors hyping this speaker up) was slightly less probably due to the smaller woofer but everything else about it was just much worse in a much boxier and less responsive speaker. When I finally got the Neumanns next to the HS8, it was a joke. On axis, within the woofer's beaming, Yamaha made a much more open and accurate monitor from 1970s style drivers and 1980s electronics.
The same thing happened with the not so great JBL LSR 305. JBL tried to use a computer modeled waveguide meant for PA system like compression drivers and a DSP crossover to get a cheap Chinese button dome get to down to 1.7 khz! There's a big midrange recession of course. I have a pair of the mkII gathering dust on my basement floor. The woofers on my mkI pair blew out monitoring and mixing drums. There is no limiter at all so they're super fragile for real pro use. The ones with bigger woofers are truly awful.
I agree with you wholeheartedly on the last paragraph. I have never heard a metal dome tweeter that sound normal. I get that some find them less dry than many softdomes but to me, anyone that thinks a Genelec or a Focal monitor sounds normal is just wrong. I end up just recommending the HS8 to most of my clients and musician friends that want to get into production. There are so few monitors you can actually buy now here in the USA right now that actually sound normal. It's the same flood of fragile prosumer junk that has polluted the interface, live sound, and rackmount gear markets. Even what Guitar Center carried 20 years ago was sturdier. They're all used in bedrooms to make entirely digital recordings from samples overlaid with poorly recorded vocals by people who can't tell the difference and would deny there is one. Most of the good stuff is special order only so if it does not work in their rooms, they're screwed and guitarists always seem hard up for cash.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Mar 2, 2020 13:56:36 GMT -6
Most seam to either love or hate the Morel, I agree with everything said above but I’ll add this first, it’s easy to work with in that it seams to take on the personality of what ever you cross it with, and it and the replacement diagrams are fing cheap. I’m not a huge fan of metal tweets, but I do like some BE and Magnesium, biggest problem and what shows in the Focals is the woofers just seam slow and there is just this sonic disconnect between the drivers. Wave guides, I have one simple question for almost everybody who uses waveguides these days; why in the age of CNC routers are you using cheap molded plastic waveguides that bring about their own resonance issues when you can just build up that baffle and route the thing out? The only thing worse are those crappy things on a bunch of those AMT’s everybody calls a ribbon!!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 22:52:17 GMT -6
Most seam to either love or hate the Morel, I agree with everything said above but I’ll add this first, it’s easy to work with in that it seams to take on the personality of what ever you cross it with, and it and the replacement diagrams are fing cheap. I’m not a huge fan of metal tweets, but I do like some BE and Magnesium, biggest problem and what shows in the Focals is the woofers just seam slow and there is just this sonic disconnect between the drivers. Wave guides, I have one simple question for almost everybody who uses waveguides these days; why in the age of CNC routers are you using cheap molded plastic waveguides that bring about their own resonance issues when you can just build up that baffle and route the thing out? The only thing worse are those crappy things on a bunch of those AMT’s everybody calls a ribbon!! Agreed wave guides all color the sound unless they're uniform like the ATC ones. The cheap ones resonante (the more expensive JBLs are damped but the speaker cabs resonate ugh) and they all have horn flare. Quested have vibe and coherency for days, the lows and low mids translate perfectly to the real world, and the speakers are easy to learn. The problem is the upper mids and high end are not true enough to the real world for tweaking guitars and presence to me. With the V2108, I wanted to saturate everything with killer tube stuff that's not muddy to make it more forward with that pushed tube style upward compression, boost the upper mids just a little too much, and throw air knobs too far clockwise. Now for mixing together already scrubbed and eqed tracks to a reference? They're killer. Long term listening? Killer too. I just mixed super forward on them when I tried to do it and would have to relearn what everything sounded like to lock down a decent guitar tone on them.
I just don't find em flat enough for my workflow with raw tracks I didn't record myself where I need the guitars to be accurate. Everything is mixed around the guitar tones, nothing soloed, after having the most offensive things eqed out of solo tracks because metal is guitar based music unless the riffs suck and the band is a showcase for the drummer when the workflow is just swapped. If raw tracks are great, Questeds would be great with reference tracks. Great too for stem mixing. Metal is not recorded well 99% of the time though and I don't really like to switch between speakers in the same setup and confuse myself even more!
Genelecs, Focals, Adams, JBLs, Barefoots, and Dynaudios I couldn't vibe with. Some of the Focal tweeters and headphones sound slow now because people complained about how sharp they were. The best monitor Focal was involved was the KRK 6000. Those things ruled.
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