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Post by klauth on Dec 29, 2019 11:13:28 GMT -6
Is the M/S recording Technique truly stereo.... or, more of a psycho pseudo affect?
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Post by stormymondays on Dec 29, 2019 11:15:53 GMT -6
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Post by Tbone81 on Dec 29, 2019 11:53:59 GMT -6
It’s always sounded more like a psycho acoustic effect to me. In M/S I feel like I can’t locate anything in the stereo field even though it sounds stereo if that makes any sense.
I Always preferred Blumlein myself. But ymmv
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Post by Blackdawg on Dec 29, 2019 13:15:02 GMT -6
I prefer ortf much more. But it is stereo.
Pretty fun to use m/s in front if a drum kit for room sound really.
I use an m/s setup for production audio all the time as well because it is very portable and is easy to wind protect. Gets a stereo image when you need it on set.
I'm getting a M/S boompole next for better run n gun stuff. Scheops makes a nice production ortf though too I'll be getting.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 29, 2019 15:51:25 GMT -6
Sure, it's true stereo of the coincident variety. You can do surround with dual mid side. I am baffled this question continues to come up, over and over again. We seem to have this discussion every two months. Find and read the Wes Dooley AES paper on MS. Look at the equivalent pattern possibilities. Consider it works far better with near perfect mic patterns than beamy ragged ones (like LDC's). It’s always sounded more like a psycho acoustic effect to me. In M/S I feel like I can’t locate anything in the stereo field even though it sounds stereo if that makes any sense. I Always preferred Blumlein myself. But ymmv Something is wrong if it sounds like an effect. Most common user error is too much side signal. Localization is excellent if you use matched SDC mics of identical sensitivities. LDC's suck at MS, as do mixed LDC/SDC. Blumlein and MS with a pair of figure 8's are mostly the same thing, but Blumlein has less options for successful post manipulation due to the differences in high frequency directivity. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 29, 2019 16:20:32 GMT -6
The only scientifically "accurate" stereo is binaural reproduced through headphones. I always understood "true" Blumlein to be crossed figure-8s and have always thought that created a more convincing illusion than M/S.
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Post by Vincent R. on Dec 29, 2019 18:20:45 GMT -6
I did a really nice recording of a choir, organ, and small orchestral ensemble with a mid side array as the stereo set up. It came out great; Peluso 2247SE in wide cardioid 2 as the center mic and a KSM44 as the side mic. We used a U87ai for soloists. If you go to my website below you can hear that below. I did take a mono sum of the house mics and blend it in a bit there, but it’s subtle.
https%3A//soundcloud.com/vincent-ricciardi/pater-in-manus-tuas-live-wst-monica-choir
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Post by Tbone81 on Dec 29, 2019 19:38:03 GMT -6
Sure, it's true stereo of the coincident variety. You can do surround with dual mid side. I am baffled this question continues to come up, over and over again. We seem to have this discussion every two months. It’s always sounded more like a psycho acoustic effect to me. In M/S I feel like I can’t locate anything in the stereo field even though it sounds stereo if that makes any sense. I Always preferred Blumlein myself. But ymmv Something is wrong if it sounds like an effect. Most common user error is too much side signal. Localization is excellent if you use matched SDC mics of identical sensitivities. LDC's suck at MS, as do mixed LDC/SDC. Blumlein and MS with a pair of figure 8's are mostly the same thing, but Blumlein has less options for successful post manipulation due to the differences in high frequency directivity. I've only ever tried it with a LDC (Miktek CV4) in figure 8 paired with a SDC (whatever I had available at the time) so maybe, as you say, it was not a good match of mics. Regardless, my ears never liked the sound and it didn't matter how much or how little side mics I had turned up, it just sounded odd. |
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Post by Ward on Dec 29, 2019 19:42:33 GMT -6
In short, no.
True Blumlein is closer as is XY AB and ORTF.
My favorite for big acoustic solo recording is Blumlein (2 figure of 8s at 90º or 110º for a weirdly wider effect), XY for full picture drum overheads, and wide spaced AB for drummers who keep their cymbals bookended.
ORTF has been a fickle bitch. Either it works fantastic or it craps the bed.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 30, 2019 10:08:58 GMT -6
Ambisonics is an extension of MS. Done properly it's like being able to turn your head and change perspective. I was just tracking horizontal B format ambisonic in the middle of a band rehearsal and it's pretty well localized as a stereo down-mix. Any of these techniques can work better within arrays of more than 2 mics. I do a lot of concert multitracks with a main coincident / near-coincident array of 5-7 mics for stereo. Usually something that could also create surround. Not uncommon for ORTF to be modified with an omni center that's low-passed. Not uncommon for AB omni's to be low-passed as part of an array with coincident or near-coincident centers. Etc.     |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2019 16:53:48 GMT -6
The only scientifically "accurate" stereo is binaural reproduced through headphones. I always understood "true" Blumlein to be crossed figure-8s and have always thought that created a more convincing illusion than M/S. A lot of people don't know (although Bob certainly does) that you can use any mic for the Mid mic, as long as it is a decent timbral match with the side mic. This gives you options when you have to be closer or farther away than might be ideal. An interesting factlet that comes out of this is that you can use a figure-of-8 for the Mid mic. In that case, assuming an ideal polar response, you can turn M/S into Blumlein and vice-versa. I've done it as an experiment, although in the real world I'd just use the mic-ing that I wanted in the first place. And by the way, Happy New Year to all of you!!!! |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Dec 30, 2019 17:44:02 GMT -6
The only scientifically "accurate" stereo is binaural reproduced through headphones. I always understood "true" Blumlein to be crossed figure-8s and have always thought that created a more convincing illusion than M/S. A lot of people don't know (although Bob certainly does) that you can use any mic for the Mid mic, as long as it is a decent timbral match with the side mic. This gives you options when you have to be closer or farther away than might be ideal. An interesting factlet that comes out of this is that you can use a figure-of-8 for the Mid mic. In that case, assuming an ideal polar response, you can turn M/S into Blumlein and vice-versa. I've done it as an experiment, although in the real world I'd just use the mic-ing that I wanted in the first place. And by the way, Happy New Year to all of you!!!! For true stereo you really do need the same phase response in the Mid, but you can get a very respectable result with something different. 2 mics made me a fan of M/S, the first was the Fostex printed ribbon, the other was the cheap Sony ECM stereo mic. Both were just stupid simple point and shoot that gave great results for the money. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2019 19:02:12 GMT -6
Ambisonics is an extension of MS. Done properly it's like being able to turn your head and change perspective. I was just tracking horizontal B format ambisonic in the middle of a band rehearsal and it's pretty well localized as a stereo down-mix. Any of these techniques can work better within arrays of more than 2 mics. I do a lot of concert multitracks with a main coincident / near-coincident array of 5-7 mics for stereo. Usually something that could also create surround. Not uncommon for ORTF to be modified with an omni center that's low-passed. Not uncommon for AB omni's to be low-passed as part of an array with coincident or near-coincident centers. Etc. No fair posting the pics if you don't walk us through exactly what you're doing ;-) First one looks like a Blumlein with front and rear-facing mics, but I can't quite work out the others. On that first picture, the front/rear are out a good 16" or so from the stereo pair. Is the idea to provide a stable center by taking advantage of the precedence effect (much like the center mic in a Decca tree)? |
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Post by EmRR on Dec 30, 2019 19:21:25 GMT -6
Any of these techniques can work better within arrays of more than 2 mics. I do a lot of concert multitracks with a main coincident / near-coincident array of 5-7 mics for stereo. Usually something that could also create surround. No fair posting the pics if you don't walk us through exactly what you're doing ;-) 1) Blumlein with AB omni outriggers 2) Horizontal B format (ambisonic) with AB omni outriggers 3) Cardioid mid side with with AB omni outriggers and options for shotgun mid and a mid-coincident spotting shotgun. The spotting shotgun by itself as M sounds in the stereo image to be exactly where it's pointed. Can be pan compensated when used as a spot at lower levels, or if filtered heavily. 4) Dual mid side with AB omni outriggers and options for pressure omni mid and shotgun mid Any of the mid mics can be mixed to make differing mid patterns. Any (coincident or AB) can be filtered relative to others to achieve particular frequency or directional perspectives. I've been using the Austrian Audio plugin for DMS capsule mixing and frequency filtering lately, one example. The AB pair brings bass perspective into the picture in a way coincident techniques can't really do. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2019 19:35:55 GMT -6
No fair posting the pics if you don't walk us through exactly what you're doing ;-) 1) Blumlein with AB omni outriggers 2) Horizontal B format (ambisonic) with AB omni outriggers 3) Cardioid mid side with with AB omni outriggers and options for shotgun mid and a mid-coincident spotting shotgun. The spotting shotgun by itself as M sounds in the stereo image to be exactly where it's pointed. Can be pan compensated when used as a spot at lower levels, or if filtered heavily. 4) Dual mid side with with AB omni outriggers and options for pressure omni mid and shotgun mid Any of the mid mics can be mixed to make differing mid patterns. Any (coincident or AB) can be filtered relative to others to achieve particular frequency or directional perspectives. I've been using the Austrian Audio plugin for DMS capsule mixing and frequency filtering lately, one example. The AB pair brings bass perspective into the picture in a way coincident techniques can't really do. Thanks! I was only off by 90 degrees. I often do something that's not too dissimilar from the ideas you're showing. I like M/S in center with spaced omnis. In a stereo mix, the level of the side mid can be adjusted to help fill the soundstage, while the omnis give a more robust overall image that's not badly affected the the sweet spot (have I mentioned how much I hate the idea of the sweet spot). That technique (as most of yours do) opens up a nice option for surround. A bit of mid in the center channel, decoded M/S in left/right and then the omnis in the side (7.1) or surround (5.1). |
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Post by shoe on Dec 31, 2019 22:41:55 GMT -6
Mid-Side is stereo once you decode it, yes. I used to do this a lot on guitar cans with 2 figure 8 ribbon mics. It tends to sound quite natural.
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Post by schmalzy on Jan 1, 2020 14:02:32 GMT -6
Is FM radio true stereo?
If "yes" then M/S is true stereo. FM radio is transmitted in two signals: mid and side.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 14:46:07 GMT -6
Yes, stereo as true as it gets, if you are aware of stereo being far from "naturally accurate" anyways. As Bob pointed out so precisely. We are used to the types of stereo we hear from since the first stereo in our sleeping rooms in the 70s/80s, I guess. I remember the mom of a friend of mine did not get the point in having "stereo" at all. It took her quite some time to "learn" how to hear stereo, no joke, she could not tell the differences in the beginning ...
I am curious to experiment with 2 cheap ribbons in (near, because if fig. 8 for frontal mic) M/S or Blumlein in front of a drumset, additionally to 2x MK012 in Glyn Johns overhead positions. Since the room is bigger and higher than I am used to, which is nice, i am a bit excited how it turns out best. M/S can still give nice room mics for a drumset even if the room is less than optimal, asymetric etc.. Did never test out Blumlein for this, but seems obvious to try with 2 ribbons anyway...
There is so many options of microphony for stereo, that it should be obvious, that stereo is always a kind of illusion, like 3D is in movies. Although it can be very convincing in tricking the brain to calculate the room information ... It has something magic. :-)
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jan 1, 2020 16:42:57 GMT -6
I had to run a KM-84 and a U67 in M/S for nearly a decade. A friend made orchestral recordings with a pristine AKG C-24 and it was amazing.
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Post by rowmat on Jan 2, 2020 0:10:19 GMT -6
Two identical figure 8 mics or an omni with the same characteristics as the fig 8 make more sense to me for M/S than a cardioid for the center mic.
Potential issues with using a cardioid for the center is poor off axis performance at the extremes and/or unpredictable blending of the mid and side channels due to inconsistant phase/frequency characteristics between different mics.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 2, 2020 7:57:56 GMT -6
I like to think of an analogy Rolo 46 makes. If you doubt MS, check out his recordings, which are mostly dual 8 MS classical.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 2, 2020 8:08:54 GMT -6
Two identical figure 8 mics or an omni with the same characteristics as the fig 8 make more sense to me for M/S than a cardioid for the center mic. Potential issues with using a cardioid for the center is poor off axis performance at the extremes and/or unpredictable blending of the mid and side channels due to inconsistant phase/frequency characteristics between different mics. This is where you want argue with Bob’s theory, once the real world rears it’s ugly face and you realize you either have to step away from the theoretical cardiod to get a phase response of the figure 8 to achieve a true stereo response. Of course this is where the art in what we do comes in, if it was simply all about putting up a pair of mics in one of the many theoretical configurations anybody could make great recordings. |
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Post by svart on Jan 2, 2020 8:22:13 GMT -6
I'm going to say that no, a figure 8 mic like a ribbon cannot capture an accurate stereo image when used as the Side mic for M/S.
Stereo as we perceive it is based on two independent membranes allowed to vibrate in isolation from each other. A ribbon mic has a single membrane that would have multiple cancelling and adding frequency nodes that are created from signals that have reflected equally powered but different phase angle.
Only two separate mic membranes can create a true "stereo" image, so even a mic with two separate membranes but are air coupled might not accurate capture true stereo if the air-spring effect between capsule backplates allows interaction between the capsule's frequency capture.
Otherwise I do not think that M/S is truly stereo, for the same reason as above, that we don't hear through three membranes. Even if we electrically mix multiple sources to L/R outputs, the image is comprised of a soundstage that is not how we hear in real life.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 2, 2020 8:26:07 GMT -6
I'm going to say that no, a figure 8 mic like a ribbon cannot capture an accurate stereo image when used as the Side mic for M/S. But...but.....I’ve been getting stereo with well defined localization out of MS ribbon OH’s for years..... Funny, what never sounds like stereo to me is spaced OH’s. That usually sounds like random mono panning to me. |
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Post by EmRR on Jan 2, 2020 8:32:49 GMT -6
Most of this is really about figuring out where to place any mic array to achieve the desired result. Different array, different result. Different space, different source, different array.
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