|
|
Post by MorEQsThanAnswers on Dec 3, 2019 13:24:12 GMT -6
Hi all,
Having never been able to spend a good amount of time with a console, I never really got to understanding what people were referring to when they said "driving the console." Can you guys help fill a brother in?
Question 1: When people say "hitting the console hard," are they referring to hitting the line inputs hard and getting the saturation on each channel? Or, do they mean hitting the line inputs healthily and leaving the faders closer to unity so that the mix bus itself is taking a beating?
I have a good idea that the latter is the answer, however, I'm being thrown off by the importance people seem to place on analog fader automation. If you are hitting the line-inputs hard, I understand why automating the level down in the DAW would be an issue. Imagine trying to bring your drums down via DAW for a softer section and, because you were clipping, the level doesn't change and your transients start returning... that isn't gonna help the soft section of the song!
On the other hand, if the mix bus itself is what needs to be driven, this seems like it would be best done with MixBus compressor make-up. In this case, I don't see why automating from the DAW would be considered such an issue that SSL/Capi would have needed to invent DeltaControl/DAWtomation.
Question 2: I mostly hear people raving about what happens when you hit, specifically, an SSL hard. This is confusing to me because most SSLs are transformerless. What kind of a difference would you expect to hear from hitting an SSL hard versus something with an output tranny post-2bus insert? Is the fact that there's no transformers what creates the "clarity" people speak about when driving an SSL? I imagine trannies might get comparatively "fat and juicy" instead of "crispy?"
When the money is right, I'll be deciding between a 24 channel from IronAge and the SSL Sigma. The extra mono channels and additional 8 inputs on the IA seem like a godsend, but most of my favorite mixes throughout my life have come from SSL (Andy Wallace, Dr. Dre, Jaycen Joshua, etc.) and I'm worried there's something about "the SSL sound" that I'd be missing out on. Any thoughts?
Thanks!
|
|
|
|
Post by svart on Dec 3, 2019 13:42:12 GMT -6
Hi all, Having never been able to spend a good amount of time with a console, I never really got to understanding what people were referring to when they said "driving the console." Can you guys help fill a brother in?
Question 1: When people say "hitting the console hard," are they referring to hitting the line inputs hard and getting the saturation on each channel? Or, do they mean hitting the line inputs healthily and leaving the faders closer to unity so that the mix bus itself is taking a beating? I have a good idea that the latter is the answer, however, I'm being thrown off by the importance people seem to place on analog fader automation. If you are hitting the line-inputs hard, I understand why automating the level down in the DAW would be an issue. Imagine trying to bring your drums down via DAW for a softer section and, because you were clipping, the level doesn't change and your transients start returning... that isn't gonna help the soft section of the song! On the other hand, if the mix bus itself is what needs to be driven, this seems like it would be best done with MixBus compressor make-up. In this case, I don't see why automating from the DAW would be considered such an issue that SSL/Capi would have needed to invent DeltaControl/DAWtomation. Question 2: I mostly hear people raving about what happens when you hit, specifically, an SSL hard. This is confusing to me because most SSLs are transformerless. What kind of a difference would you expect to hear from hitting an SSL hard versus something with an output tranny post-2bus insert? Is the fact that there's no transformers what creates the "clarity" people speak about when driving an SSL? I imagine trannies might get comparatively "fat and juicy" instead of "crispy?" When the money is right, I'll be deciding between a 24 channel from IronAge and the SSL Sigma. The extra mono channels and additional 8 inputs on the IA seem like a godsend, but most of my favorite mixes throughout my life have come from SSL (Andy Wallace, Dr. Dre, Jaycen Joshua, etc.) and I'm worried there's something about "the SSL sound" that I'd be missing out on. Any thoughts? Thanks! People use the term generically, but I guess the most used version of the term is when hitting the mix bus on the SSL 4K. You can overdrive it until it crackles, but just before that, you get a slightly fatter tone where the opamps are being stressed but not completely giving up. Even those who don't call it "driving" might call it the "sweet spot". I don't know that you can do the same with the 9K or with the later Superanalogue designs since they were actually meant to avoid headroom issues that the 4K/6K had which led to the exploitation by heavy hitters.. I've not personally heard that anyone tries to drive the inputs on a 4K to saturation, but I don't think it's impossible that folks do it even without knowing it because any opamp has a point where it's about to become nonlinear. some just take it a bit more gracefully than others. |
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Dec 3, 2019 14:43:39 GMT -6
First off - I love consoles. I grew up on them, and have a very fond spot for them. I've mixed on 4000's, 9000's, Various API's from vintage to modern, 80 series Neves, V series Neve's, 8088RS Neves, Trident Series B's, Soundcraft's, D&R's, and a few others. That said, I have left ALL of them behind for a better work flow, and more analog-centric hybrid approach - and I'm 100% happy with that - although I do miss sitting in front of the big iron sometimes.....  For your questions - It's all about gain staging. Where to push, where to pull back. How hard to hit a certain section of the console, where to not hit too hard. Every mixer has their own approach. So each person's description of where that sweet spot is will be different. Also, it varies with console manufacture. Some consoles just crap out when you push them. Others sound glorious. Some guys want endless headroom, and wide open sound. Others want to crush the living **** out of things. Your best bet to really understand it is to actually sit with someone who's doing it, or - if you can't pull that off - book some time and try things out yourself. Descriptions with words will only fall short. PS : To answer some of your questions : You have to remember a time when the reason people used consoles was because they were using tape - not DAWS. Your scenario in paragraph 2 of Q1 just wouldn't happen. And honestly, I think you are overthinking your entire premise. Re: 2 - some people might "rave" about it, while others hate it. Truth. The "SSL Sound" is mostly in reference to their 4000 series consoles. What you get when you hit them hard (or some might say "too" hard) is grainy harshness. It's a sound. The sound of a lot of popular music in the 90's especially. Your "crispy" is pretty much right on. API's and especially 80 series Neve's get fatter while SSL's get more transistory crispiness. Re: your future purchase - if you're after an SSL 4000 style sound, I don't believe that either of those boxes will get you there. IMO, OTB summing (not including consoles which are significantly more than just "summers") is a bit of a "emperor's got no clothes" syndrome - UNLESS every input channel is transformer / class A / Tube based. Whether you go 16 wide vs 24 wide vs. ITB and then into the box 2 wide is not going to make much of a difference. It's in the makeup gain section of the circuitry that the magic happens. It's a controversial point of view when every manufacturer is moving towards making summing boxes, but I'll stick with my conclusions - I've done the research and the listening. BTW, to kind of make my point - there's a real interesting set of blind comparison files floating around. There's 3 sets of files - a.) Burl Vancouver, summing 32 wide; Burl Vancouver - summed ITB, and going 2 wide thru the Vancouver; Silver Bullet - summed ITB, going 2 wide thru the SB. The results were pretty unanimous - most like the SB best, the Burl 2 wide thru the summer's hardware 2nd best, and the Burl 32 wide the least. OK, so take the Silver Bullet out of the equation..... The Burl 32 wide vs. 2 wide sounded similar, but most chose the 2 wide over 32 wide. I'll leave you to form your own conclusions. The files are posted over on the GS site somewhere. Good luck with your search. |
|
|
|
Post by matt@IAA on Dec 3, 2019 14:54:23 GMT -6
There's a ton of different ways to do a line input, so the first question is kind of hard. Consider for example some consoles use line input transformers, some are unbalanced, and some are op amp (discrete or chip) balanced. Each of those as a line amp is going to sound different as you hit it harder. Then, for the mix bus part, some are passive summed with constant make-up gain amps, some are active summed. Both of those will sound different when you change the level going into it. Lots of different moving pieces, and the answer would probably change from console to console, track to track, mix to mix... For the second question - an SSL is a transformerless op amp based console, so that distortion is going to be based on the op amp itself. Different amp topologies have different distortion profiles, kinda how different guitar amps do (pentode vs triode, Marshall vs Fender vs Vox or whatever). Not to that extent, obviously, but an 5532 distorts differently than a 2520. And it can be pleasant. You can also get transformer distortion...which can come from loading, or level, or source impedance etc, which is a different kind of distortion and can also be pleasant. All circuits cause distortion, some more than others, and all of them have increasing nonlinearity as you drive them harder and harder (in other words, everything clips somewhere). And that means each one has a range of tones that changes with level, which is why analog is so much fun. |
|
|
|
Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 3, 2019 17:57:00 GMT -6
Driving the mix bus of a 4000 is one thing, but it’s definitely not what you want to do on anything after the K series (or on the J for that matter). Things get ugly quick, and it’s not a good ugly.
That’s what you’d get with the sigma as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by MorEQsThanAnswers on Jan 12, 2020 18:30:06 GMT -6
BTW, to kind of make my point - there's a real interesting set of blind comparison files floating around. There's 3 sets of files - a.) Burl Vancouver, summing 32 wide; Burl Vancouver - summed ITB, and going 2 wide thru the Vancouver; Silver Bullet - summed ITB, going 2 wide thru the SB. Found them! Such a great idea! store.louderthanliftoff.com/pages/silver-bullet-vs-summing-boxI want to use this, but I think I'm having issues seeing the full window (or there is some type of issue in the code). BradM Those top two boxes on the right should have text right? Using Google Chrome Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by sirthought on Jan 13, 2020 2:12:09 GMT -6
No, those boxes are volume sliders for A or B.
Click "Start ABX" in the player to begin playing Clip X. The player randomly chooses one of the four clips to play for you.
Click "Choose" to select which clip you think you just listened to. You may play each clip as many times as you'd like.
Click "Next X" to start playing the next random clip.
Click "Choose" and "Next X" for additional rounds of listening to increase the statistical certainty that your results are not blind luck.
Click "See Results" to stop and see the result of your test.
Click "Reset" to start the test over.
|
|
|
|
Post by MorEQsThanAnswers on Jan 13, 2020 4:43:00 GMT -6
No, those boxes are volume sliders for A or B. Ahh thanks. I was expecting previews of all four files to load  |
|
|
|
Post by sirthought on Jan 13, 2020 5:15:40 GMT -6
When doing that test I chose correctly 50% of the time, which I think it stated was better than average. But for me the bottom line was that either sound was acceptable to me. Sometimes when I chose the 16 channel sum I thought the audio had more depth, but obviously I picked wrong at times.
I think the thing with the SSL console is that with the people you admire, those were the "good old days" for when they were coming up and doing production. They are going to speak about it fondly. But methods of production are changing all the time and you can still get a pro sound through lots of avenues. I view buying a SSL console to be so expensive, but doubt you need that today. Certainly their control and automation have their merits, but that has little to do with the sound if you just practice that with the best gear you can get.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,919 
|
Post by ericn on Jan 13, 2020 9:53:25 GMT -6
Every part of a console is part of the sound, and every Ch of a console can act a little different. When us old farts talk about driving a console it’s not necessarily just about hitting part of it hard, it’s about how these finicky beasts are like taking the wheel of Paul’s Ferrari. Seriously getting behind a particular console and doing a mix is like taking a high performance car down a winding road, there may not be a “right” line but there sure are a bunch of wrong lines to take.
The best way to learn a console isn’t to spend time on line, it’s to spend some time behind the console playing around. If you get the chance to spend time with a 4K mult a single to a handful of channels and see how different they react to the exact same settings, your probably going to find at least one of these channels is going to react differently and your going to have to adjust to its behavior. It’s all about distortion and finding that sweet spot of sonic nirvana, that very fine between sonic heaven and hell.
The Sigma is very cool, but it has nothing in common with a 4K, I’ll say it again as much of the sound of a 4K has to do with the parts not directly related to audio! Take a look at any of the modules, most of the parts on the PCB’s are all about automation and recall! All of these parts add noise, your sworn enemy when you push a console.
My days of touring at FOH or wedges and walking up to a house or local SR supplier taught me the best thing I could do was to spend as much time as I could putting a signal through the channels and turn the knobs before sound check so I wouldn’t look stupid.
|
|
|
|
Post by matt on Jan 13, 2020 11:36:22 GMT -6
Driving the mix bus of a 4000 is one thing, but it’s definitely not what you want to do on anything after the K series (or on the J for that matter). Things get ugly quick, and it’s not a good ugly. That’s what you’d get with the sigma as well. I've learned to treat my Sigma with respect- an occasional red light on the Mix A output works, constant red flashing doesn't. The thing becomes audibly distorted and that's no good. |
|
|
|
Post by MorEQsThanAnswers on Jan 13, 2020 13:48:20 GMT -6
Whether you go 16 wide vs 24 wide vs. ITB and then into the box 2 wide is not going to make much of a difference. It's in the makeup gain section of the circuitry that the magic happens. It's a controversial point of view when every manufacturer is moving towards making summing boxes, but I'll stick with my conclusions - I've done the research and the listening. BTW, to kind of make my point - there's a real interesting set of blind comparison files floating around. There's 3 sets of files - a.) Burl Vancouver, summing 32 wide; Burl Vancouver - summed ITB, and going 2 wide thru the Vancouver; Silver Bullet - summed ITB, going 2 wide thru the SB. The results were pretty unanimous - most like the SB best, the Burl 2 wide thru the summer's hardware 2nd best, and the Burl 32 wide the least. Good luck with your search. 50%... The same result I'd expect if I muted everything and picked my answers out of a hat... Wow, I'm shook. Confirmation bias is a bitch and a half! Attachments:
|
|
|
|
Post by BradM on Jan 13, 2020 18:37:20 GMT -6
BTW, to kind of make my point - there's a real interesting set of blind comparison files floating around. There's 3 sets of files - a.) Burl Vancouver, summing 32 wide; Burl Vancouver - summed ITB, and going 2 wide thru the Vancouver; Silver Bullet - summed ITB, going 2 wide thru the SB. Found them! Such a great idea! store.louderthanliftoff.com/pages/silver-bullet-vs-summing-boxI want to use this, but I think I'm having issues seeing the full window (or there is some type of issue in the code). BradM Those top two boxes on the right should have text right? Using Google Chrome I had forgotten that I still had that up. The player was a little complicated to working and I got frustrated while implementing it. I'm impressed that page worked for you. Haha. My webpage coding skills are pretty mediocre. Brad |
|
