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Post by christopher on Nov 16, 2019 1:35:40 GMT -6
Live I experienced it. But only when I’d leave FOH and cut through people to the front stage to see how it sounded for all the crazy lunatics up front. and It sounded amaaazing up there! No wonder It was easy to get them dancing and screaming. Basically the subs are under the stage so the kick/snare/toms/bass all hit you below the chest, vibrate your whole lower body like massage, while the PA flying overhead carry the vocals and keys like a voice from the sky. Cymbals and guitar you mostly get from the stage ...mixed with sound floating above you in the PA. Super 3D sound, truly awesome.
Mixing that way, yes I think modern Pop music mixing does this. Reason; after shows I heard lots of DJs pLaying WAY too loud while I wrapped cables.. and vocals in pop always soar way overhead on the PA. Harmonies are always even higher on the left right wings. Bass and 808 are down on the floor. I figured out my way to sort of do it without monitoring super loud.. have to use headphones, and lots of low pass. Then high pass vocals 200-300 and use the fader to push them higher
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Post by popmann on Nov 16, 2019 19:34:49 GMT -6
I figured I'd see what Izotope is doing behind the scenes with that visual mixer. Good news is--they turn the fader up louder. I was interested to see what they were doing psychoacoustically. The width engages their phase inverting widener, too. So--while I applaud the idea of reworking the UI for mixing for those who don't know how to use the standard tools--that isn't doing much of anything as of now. I'll demo it again when they involve reverbs and a third dimension in that.
I would point out this is a discussion I never heard of before digital mixers and software reverbs. Two things I've repeated pointed out got a heaping dose of inferiority to what came before. I've heard musicians make recordings they mixed on Mackie Onyx level stuff sounds better than software mixers. It was a bee-atch finding software reverbs I liked as much as my antique hardware ones--and those Kurzweil rooms DID give a kind of "up and back" sound to a mix on my aux that many channels are sent into...
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 16, 2019 20:04:49 GMT -6
John, Dr Bill, there is definitely a height aspect to a sound stage. Think of a very high resolution personal sound system playing back a recording of a swing band sitting down with Ella Fitzgerald standing up to sing. If you were there, you would feel and hear the vocalist being higher than the source of the instruments. I've heard this undeniably happen at some early music classical concerts, just a handful of players are sitting while a vocalists stands. You bet the vocal sounds higher. It's not some gigantic difference, but it is discernible. Some recordings seem to capture this effect. How, I have no idea :-)
I've always tried to get more height on my vocal but failed. I'll try Wiz's technique next chance I get. I've tried it before but failed, but I'll try again.
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 16, 2019 20:10:23 GMT -6
John, Dr Bill, there is definitely a height aspect to a sonic sound stage. Think of a very relating sound system playing back a swing band sitting down with Ella Fitzgerald standing up to sing. If you were there, you would feel and hear the vocalist being higher than the source of the instruments. I've heard this undeniably happen at some early music classical concerts, just a handful of players are sitting while a vocalists stands. You bet it sounds "higher". It's nots me gigantic difference, but it is discernible. I've always tried to get more height on my vocal but failed. I'll try Wiz's technique next chance I get. I've tried it before but failed, but I'll try again. Sorry but as an avid jazz band fan I have to say that example doesn't really work since the trombones and trumpets typically are on risers. Hell even the drummer is usually. But can still feel that way if the vocals are coming through the PA which they would be much louder than the brass since the brass are loud without sound reinforcement typically. But that's also a live environment. There is sound happening and the acoustics of the space come into play as well so it would feel like there's height...because the room is playing a role there. Versus just something playing back in stereo in who knows what kind of room. It's just not the same thing really I think. Now if you get into immersive playback then it is height.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 16, 2019 21:24:27 GMT -6
Maybe my example wasn't perfect, but I think you knew what I meant Blackdawg. I've seen quite a few acoustic performances and there is a sense of height there. With certain recordings I can definitely hear height as well as width and depth. I would think that reverbs also represent 3 dimensions as well, since the size of a room includes ceiling height. I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but I recall some Rock recordings where the kick sounds like it's on the floor and the vocalists sound like they're 6' tall.
Twenty five years back I was around some of the highest end stereo systems in the world, and believe me, the soundstage was startlingly real life size and 3D. Close your eyes, and you could locate the players, front to back and side to side and some instruments were higher than others.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 16, 2019 21:36:43 GMT -6
Well, I've never heard of Auro 3D before, but after a quick perusing of their website, yeah, in a "mix for video" format.
I don't think that's what's the original post was about. And, altough I only looked at it briefly, it did not appear to have jack sh!t to do with "frequency mishegoss". It's a mix for high level movie theater technology. Totally different thing.
Sort of. It's just an immersive format like Atmos. Not just theater. I'm doing music with it. And it is used as a literal sense of height. 4speakers above you after all. And of course I was just poking fun at the moment since I do literally mix with height channels but the main topic is for a stereo spectrum. Mixing with "heigh"t in a 3D format like Atmos (or Constellation) is a totally different thing. The original post was about using frequency balance/EQ as a (phony) way of placing instruments/tracks in the sound field of a normal stereo recording. Which (no intention to be rude) is utter BS.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 16, 2019 21:41:24 GMT -6
John, Dr Bill, there is definitely a height aspect to a sound stage. Think of a very high resolution personal sound system playing back a recording of a swing band sitting down with Ella Fitzgerald standing up to sing. If you were there, you would feel and hear the vocalist being higher than the source of the instruments. I've heard this undeniably happen at some early music classical concerts, just a handful of players are sitting while a vocalists stands. You bet the vocal sounds higher. It's not some gigantic difference, but it is discernible. Some recordings seem to capture this effect. How, I have no idea :-) I've always tried to get more height on my vocal but failed. I'll try Wiz's technique next chance I get. I've tried it before but failed, but I'll try again. I respectfully disagree for the most part.
In an orchestral recording the instruments are usually physically arrayed in banks, with the rearward ones physically higher than those in front - but it still doesn't really come out that way in a normal stereo recording.
At least to my ear.
Farther back, definitely. Physically higher, sorry, no.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 16, 2019 22:35:57 GMT -6
I wouldn't say you're wrong John, but it's possible you haven't heard systems like the ones I was referring to. I realize you have a lifetime's experience, but a few of my experiences are somewhat unique. My friend is the senior editor of Stereophile magazine and runs Analogue Planet .com. He's what Robert Parker is to wine, kind of the dean of analogue audio. Long story, but he nearly singlehandedly helped save the vinyl format. He has a $250,000 turntable and the rest of his system is equally high end. Don't get that wrong, he's the least snobby guy I know, and built that system up after a lifetime of selling and trading, (same way some members have a 6 figure mic locker, acquired over time). He recommends and truly likes many very relatively inexpensive components all the time.
On his system you'd think the players were there in front of you, and vocals occasionally seem to have a height factor. I've heard this on a couple of other very expensive high end systems, and once or twice on my humble stereo system. I wish I could remember which recording that was. If I ever run into it again, i'll let you know.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 16, 2019 22:43:51 GMT -6
Maybe my example wasn't perfect, but I think you knew what I meant Blackdawg. I've seen quite a few acoustic performances and there is a sense of height there. With certain recordings I can definitely hear height as well as width and depth. I would think that reverbs also represent 3 dimensions as well, since the size of a room includes ceiling height. I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but I recall some Rock recordings where the kick sounds like it's on the floor and the vocalists sound like they're 6' tall. Twenty five years back I was around some of the highest end stereo systems in the world, and believe me, the soundstage was startlingly real life size and 3D. Close your eyes, and you could locate the players, front to back and side to side and some instruments were higher than others. But up and down?
Really?
Some instruments were louder than others, sure. Semantically I guess that's "higher" (in volume) to some people, but physically higher? I don't think so.
I think that we're having a bit of a semantic kerfuffle here. "Higher" in volume does not equal physically "higher" on the stereo soundstage. (It may equal "more forward".) Neither does "brighter".
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 16, 2019 22:52:34 GMT -6
I wouldn't say you're wrong John, but it's possible you haven't heard systems like the ones I was referring to. I realize you have a lifetime's experience, but a few of my experiences are somewhat unique. My friend is the senior editor of Stereophile magazine and runs Analogue Planet .com. He's what Robert Parker is to wine, kind of the dean of analogue audio. Long story, but he nearly singlehandedly helped save the vinyl format. He has a $250,000 turntable and the rest of his system is equally high end. Don't get that wrong, he's the least snobby guy I know, and built that system up after a lifetime of selling and trading, (same way some members have a 6 figure mic locker, acquired over time). He recommends and truly likes many very relatively inexpensive components all the time. On his system you'd think the players were there in front of you, and vocals occasionally seem to have a height factor. I've heard this on a couple of other very expensive high end systems, and once or twice on my humble stereo system. I wish I could remember which recording that was. If I ever run into it again, i'll let you know. Martin, I have the greatest respect for your experience. It's been a long time, but I, also, was involved with a very high level group of (real) audiophiles, in my case in Silicon Valley back in the '70s.
It's getting a bit late for me and my sleep aids are beginning to come on noticeably (I have a problem with insomnia, due to my body clock being reversed by a lifetime or working nights), so I'm going to postpone further discussion unil tomorrow.
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Post by drbill on Nov 17, 2019 0:09:57 GMT -6
I'm out.
Carry on.....
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Post by shoe on Nov 17, 2019 1:23:29 GMT -6
I usually go for more of a soup than an altitude.
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Post by 000 on Nov 17, 2019 8:49:01 GMT -6
I always thought “height” as referred to in audio mixing was directly related to the contrast between the lowest frequencies and highest frequencies. Not the same thing as “depth” which has more to due with volume, panning, and overlapping frequencies. Modern digital/pop/electronic music sounds “taller” with its extended frequency ranges than more band passed recordings of the past.
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Post by Tbone81 on Nov 17, 2019 12:31:07 GMT -6
I always thought “height” as referred to in audio mixing was directly related to the contrast between the lowest frequencies and highest frequencies. Not the same thing as “depth” which has more to due with volume, panning, and overlapping frequencies. Modern digital/pop/electronic music sounds “taller” with its extended frequency ranges than more band passed recordings of the past. I’ll second that. I think there’s some misunderstanding here on what me (and probably others) mean by mix height. In the way I mean it, it’s not some crazy phenomenon, some eq gimmick, or some unnatural technique. I think it’s more about the frequency spectrum of the instruments in question and how well they’re defined from each other. There seems to be a bit more to it maybe...idk, it’s hard to define. As an example, if heard recordings where the background vocals seem to float just above and to the sides of the lead vocal. I’ve heard airy synth patches that sound the same. It’s a psychoacoustic thing I think. Where you perceive low sounds as being “deep” and physically low to the ground, as a deep cave or cavern would be. And likewise hear certain “light”, high end stuff as floating taller. At least that’s part of it imho. It’s also very possible that we just interpret these things differently. I mean, certain sounds evoke a very real sensation of color to me. Not quite synesthesia, but definitely something happening in my brain.
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Post by drbill on Nov 17, 2019 13:03:49 GMT -6
Dancing with words. Fishing with dreams. Painting with ideas. I could be more forceful and probably offend some delicate soul... But.... It's just..... Semantics. Sorry. I'm back in. At the risk of being redundant - IMO - all these descriptions were invented by the gatekeepers to get musicians inexperienced in mixing to spend money on software and "how to mix like a professional" programs. I've mixed thousands of pieces of music over the years and have never had floating vocals, down in the bedrock below ear level bass, or high flying cymbals. Then again, maybe I'm just a hack.... Could be. Some of my mentors who were on many classic records, and tracked / mixed iconic songs never mentioned "height", "floating", etc. terms when we discussed mixing.
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Mix Height
Nov 17, 2019 14:27:35 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Tbone81 on Nov 17, 2019 14:27:35 GMT -6
Dancing with words. Fishing with dreams. Painting with ideas. I could be more forceful and probably offend some delicate soul... But.... It's just..... Semantics. Sorry. I'm back in. At the risk of being redundant - IMO - all these descriptions were invented by the gatekeepers to get musicians inexperienced in mixing to spend money on software and "how to mix like a professional" programs. I've mixed thousands of pieces of music over the years and have never had floating vocals, down in the bedrock below ear level bass, or high flying cymbals. Then again, maybe I'm just a hack.... Could be. Some of my mentors who were on many classic records, and tracked / mixed iconic songs never mentioned "height", "floating", etc. terms when we discussed mixing. I think it’s fine if others don’t hear things, or describe them, the same way as I do. We’re talking about subjective experiences and yes, semantics...but personally I feel it’s a little rude to tell someone that the descriptions they use were just made up by people trying to sell them garbage. Thus implying that they’ve been fooled by the powers that be, and aren’t actually hearing what they claim they are. If I’m misunderstanding your point I apologize
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 17, 2019 16:00:54 GMT -6
I will say recordings that seem to have a height factor were often smaller ensemble classical pieces where it sounded like musicians were sitting down and a vocalist or a solo violin player were standing.
I believe I’ve noticed this on rare occasions on some rock recordings, but I honestly can’t be sure because it’s been a long time since I noticed anything resembling the phenomena we’re talking about here.
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Post by drbill on Nov 17, 2019 16:31:33 GMT -6
Dancing with words. Fishing with dreams. Painting with ideas. I could be more forceful and probably offend some delicate soul... But.... It's just..... Semantics. Sorry. I'm back in. At the risk of being redundant - IMO - all these descriptions were invented by the gatekeepers to get musicians inexperienced in mixing to spend money on software and "how to mix like a professional" programs. I've mixed thousands of pieces of music over the years and have never had floating vocals, down in the bedrock below ear level bass, or high flying cymbals. Then again, maybe I'm just a hack.... Could be. Some of my mentors who were on many classic records, and tracked / mixed iconic songs never mentioned "height", "floating", etc. terms when we discussed mixing. I think it’s fine if others don’t hear things, or describe them, the same way as I do. We’re talking about subjective experiences and yes, semantics...but personally I feel it’s a little rude to tell someone that the descriptions they use were just made up by people trying to sell them garbage. Thus implying that they’ve been fooled by the powers that be, and aren’t actually hearing what they claim they are. If I’m misunderstanding your point I apologize No worries, and I'm sorry if I offended you. I figured I'd offend SOMEone. I'm old school. And I had the incredible good fortune to be mentored by some even older schooled guys. Guys who helped create a good bit of the classic repertoire so many call the DNA of their musical lives.... Call it semantics, call it a changing of the vernacular, call it new-tech terms, call it whatever you like, but the terms in this thread used to describe "height" and such were never really used in the old days, and I never saw them used until we started to see internet mixing seminars, youtube tutorials and for profit AE schools pop up. It's a new phenomenon. And in reality, I kind of see it as a dismissal of old school philosophy on mixing technique. Now, we may be discussing the same thing, but with different words, but I've never heard "floating" vocals or the like. In either my own mixes, or other songs on CD's, etc.. Maybe I'm just deaf.....
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Post by wiz on Nov 17, 2019 18:05:26 GMT -6
I remember in a car I had, a particular crowded house song had a percussion part, and I could have sworn it was coming from under the passenger seat visor...
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by jeremygillespie on Nov 17, 2019 18:53:11 GMT -6
Can we get a list of songs where this can be heard. I’m not really on either side here, I’ve just no idea what you guys are talking about.
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Post by drbill on Nov 17, 2019 20:51:05 GMT -6
Can we get a list of songs where this can be heard. I’m not really on either side here, I’ve just no idea what you guys are talking about. YES!! Better yet, a mix where you can illustrate the phenomenon by moving a particular element up or down on the soundstage. A vs. B. Can be just a short clip of anything... Thx!
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 17, 2019 20:51:44 GMT -6
I always thought “height” as referred to in audio mixing was directly related to the contrast between the lowest frequencies and highest frequencies. Not the same thing as “depth” which has more to due with volume, panning, and overlapping frequencies. Modern digital/pop/electronic music sounds “taller” with its extended frequency ranges than more band passed recordings of the past. Never ever dreamed of it being that way.
That (toxic) meme speaks to me of people having ZERO experience with doing live sound or even listening to live musis.
It makes no sense AND it's anti-artistic.
It seems to me a result of the toxic meme that everything should be separate inastead of being a united work of art.
Real humans don't hear that way.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 17, 2019 21:08:31 GMT -6
I think it’s fine if others don’t hear things, or describe them, the same way as I do. We’re talking about subjective experiences and yes, semantics...but personally I feel it’s a little rude to tell someone that the descriptions they use were just made up by people trying to sell them garbage. Thus implying that they’ve been fooled by the powers that be, and aren’t actually hearing what they claim they are. If I’m misunderstanding your point I apologize No worries, and I'm sorry if I offended you. I figured I'd offend SOMEone. I'm old school. And I had the incredible good fortune to be mentored by some even older schooled guys. Guys who helped create a good bit of the classic repertoire so many call the DNA of their musical lives.... Call it semantics, call it a changing of the vernacular, call it new-tech terms, call it whatever you like, but the terms in this thread used to describe "height" and such were never really used in the old days, and I never saw them used until we started to see internet mixing seminars, youtube tutorials and for profit AE schools pop up. It's a new phenomenon. And in reality, I kind of see it as a dismissal of old school philosophy on mixing technique. Now, we may be discussing the same thing, but with different words, but I've never heard "floating" vocals or the like. In either my own mixes, or other songs on CD's, etc.. Maybe I'm just deaf..... ABSOLUTELY! This is the kind of thing you get when "internet stars" who have absolutely ZERO real knowledge or experience present themselves as "experts" to people who don't know any better.
"New tech terms" are posted by ignorami speaking to people who are even more ignorant (and stupid) than themselves, usually for a profit.
There are no "new tech terms", but these days there are a lot of FAKE "tech terms" posted and promoted by idiots who don't have the foggiest idea what they are taking about. Not in audio or electronics, anyway. In atomic physaics, maybe.
Sorry if I offended anyone. Maybe you should do your homework - from people who know what the fuck they're doing, not people who are trying to sell you something or are making excuses for their own bad practice.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 17, 2019 21:19:45 GMT -6
Can we get a list of songs where this can be heard. I’m not really on either side here, I’ve just no idea what you guys are talking about. Where the mix is not an absolute, total, mess.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 17, 2019 21:21:32 GMT -6
I remember in a car I had, a particular crowded house song had a percussion part, and I could have sworn it was coming from under the passenger seat visor... Cheers Wiz Reflection off the passenger side windshield perhaps?
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