|
|
Post by mrholmes on Nov 12, 2019 13:09:03 GMT -6
OK I use this "trick" since I was taught to do so, and its true it leads in 90% of the cases to a cleaner, opener and more polished low end.
But why does raising and lowering the same frequency spot -at the same time- helps?
Sounds like an oxymoron to me.
THX for explaining the EQ idea PEQ....
|
|
|
|
Post by mcirish on Nov 12, 2019 13:49:03 GMT -6
I don't think they are at exactly the same frequency. From what I understand, the dip is slightly higher that the boost. I've seen the same thing done on analog EQs. You get the low end bump but lose a little of the mud right above it.
|
|
|
|
Post by phantom on Nov 12, 2019 13:56:21 GMT -6
That's it. They don't null. You end up with some frequencies slightly cutted and others slightly boosted.
I don't use the technic that much. But normally it does what you are saying. Cleans and polishes the low end.
|
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Nov 12, 2019 15:33:22 GMT -6
OK I use this "trick" since I was taught to do so, and its true it leads in 90% of the cases to a cleaner, opener and more polished low end.
But why does raising and lowering the same frequency spot -at the same time- helps?
Sounds like an oxymoron to me.
THX for explaining the EQ idea PEQ....
The boost and cut curves are not symmetrical. |
|
|
|
Post by matt@IAA on Nov 12, 2019 15:34:47 GMT -6
Not sure about the Pultec specifically but a lot of those passive styles have a different Q when cutting vs boosting.
|
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Nov 12, 2019 15:38:20 GMT -6
Not sure about the Pultec specifically but a lot of those passive styles have a different Q when cutting vs boosting. Exactly. The curves are not symmetrical. |
|
|
|
Post by Blackdawg on Nov 12, 2019 16:01:26 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Nov 12, 2019 16:27:57 GMT -6
Not sure about the Pultec specifically but a lot of those passive styles have a different Q when cutting vs boosting.
In other words I can use two passive filters in series and can do the exact same thing. Intresting...
|
|
|
|
Post by matt@IAA on Nov 12, 2019 18:21:03 GMT -6
Not sure about the Pultec specifically but a lot of those passive styles have a different Q when cutting vs boosting.
In other words I can use two passive filters in series and can do the exact same thing. Intresting...
Only if the filters are set in the same was as the pultec way. The Q is set by the RLC values, specifically the characteristic impedance of the circuit. Somewhere on GDIY you can find Ian’s write up on the math. Not complex and explains it really clearly. |
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Nov 12, 2019 19:10:00 GMT -6
I have posted the response charts here and elsewhere. They are also in the original manual. All is online.
|
|
|
|
Post by svart on Nov 12, 2019 20:55:01 GMT -6
In layman's terms, the boost has a very slow rolloff while the cut creates a dip right in the middle of that boost's rolloff which makes it a much steeper one while dipping out some of the "mud" frequencies.
You can do the same with plugin EQ really easy. Take any EQ, create a low shelf, then use a medium-Q band to dip out a lot of that rolloff.
Done.
|
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Nov 12, 2019 21:54:04 GMT -6
In layman's terms, the boost has a very slow rolloff while the cut creates a dip right in the middle of that boost's rolloff which makes it a much steeper one while dipping out some of the "mud" frequencies. You can do the same with plugin EQ really easy. Take any EQ, create a low shelf, then use a medium-Q band to dip out a lot of that rolloff. Done. More or less, yes. Although a plugin won't sound exactly the same as a real Pultec or even a well made hardware clone. |
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Nov 13, 2019 4:09:35 GMT -6
In layman's terms, the boost has a very slow rolloff while the cut creates a dip right in the middle of that boost's rolloff which makes it a much steeper one while dipping out some of the "mud" frequencies. You can do the same with plugin EQ really easy. Take any EQ, create a low shelf, then use a medium-Q band to dip out a lot of that rolloff. Done. More or less, yes. Although a plugin won't sound exactly the same as a real Pultec or even a well made hardware clone.
Worked with both and IMO its nothing that breaks the song. Needless to say that turning real knobs is FUN.
I am in the middle of thinking about another 1176 or one of those Pultec Clones...or the 2A. The thing is I write a lot of slow stuff and the 76 is nothing I use often.
What ever, I need a gift to my self on Christmas....
|
|
|
|
Post by svart on Nov 13, 2019 8:02:16 GMT -6
In layman's terms, the boost has a very slow rolloff while the cut creates a dip right in the middle of that boost's rolloff which makes it a much steeper one while dipping out some of the "mud" frequencies. You can do the same with plugin EQ really easy. Take any EQ, create a low shelf, then use a medium-Q band to dip out a lot of that rolloff. Done. More or less, yes. Although a plugin won't sound exactly the same as a real Pultec or even a well made hardware clone. Maybe not the exact same, but it'll give a good approximation of the "trick" itself, just not with the other attributes of analog tube gear. |
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Nov 14, 2019 8:28:41 GMT -6
More or less, yes. Although a plugin won't sound exactly the same as a real Pultec or even a well made hardware clone. Maybe not the exact same, but it'll give a good approximation of the "trick" itself, just not with the other attributes of analog tube gear.
Just a side question as you are also very good as tech and my tech is out of business since this year.
I found something crazy with PT HW I used and sticked with the plug in on a kick drum - so to say the hardware added some hollow sound to the kick. I checked if I did something wrong, routing or latency... but NO.
This leads to the question if it does something with the phase frequency wise? Or was the unit faulty maybe?
|
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Nov 14, 2019 10:08:52 GMT -6
Study my post here:
groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=48328.msg703839#msg703839
|
|
|
|
Post by Blackdawg on Nov 14, 2019 12:54:25 GMT -6
Maybe not the exact same, but it'll give a good approximation of the "trick" itself, just not with the other attributes of analog tube gear.
Just a side question as you are also very good as tech and my tech is out of business since this year.
I found something crazy with PT HW I used and sticked with the plug in on a kick drum - so to say the hardware added some hollow sound to the kick. I checked if I did something wrong, routing or latency... but NO.
This leads to the question if it does something with the phase frequency wise? Or was the unit faulty maybe?
Are you running HDX or standard? Sounds like a latency issue to me. Or if you have it in parallel with another track that is just like it that can cause issues too I believe. |
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Nov 14, 2019 14:55:19 GMT -6
Just a side question as you are also very good as tech and my tech is out of business since this year.
I found something crazy with PT HW I used and sticked with the plug in on a kick drum - so to say the hardware added some hollow sound to the kick. I checked if I did something wrong, routing or latency... but NO.
This leads to the question if it does something with the phase frequency wise? Or was the unit faulty maybe?
This is a bit embarrassing, but -
On the first album I sent to Bob O for mastering I'd been having a weird problem that was manifesting as a 2-buss channel imbalance with some low end weirdness on one or two songs. Couldn't figure it out and asked Bob if he could help. He found that there was some LF phase weirdness in one channel and worked some sort of magic to make the mastered version come out right. We had checked all the cabling, everything in the board (which had been our first suspicion), went over the passive buss EQs that had been between the board's output and the converters, everything we could think of, everything seemed OK but the problem had persisted. Then later, after that project had been done we were setting up for another project and discovered that one of our converters had blown one side of the balanced line which was causing both the level difference and the phase problem.
D'OH!
After getting over the intial phase of feeling really stupid - we had checked EVERYTHING except the I/O circuitry in the converters, which I hadn't thought of - I took that as a sign that it was time to bite the bullet asnd get new conversion, which was getting rather long in the tooth anyway (3 Echo Layla 24/96s for 24 channels, they were obsolete and the company had gone out of the converter business), got a new Antelope Orion 32, and haven't had a problem since*.
The problem had probably escaped us because we had tracked to and were mixing from tape, no digital until mixdown. We knew there was a problem because the meters showed a 2 buss channel imbalance on playback - we though it was a problem in the console, converters never crossed our little analog minds....
So yeah, don't discount the possibility of a hardware problem with your converter(s).
* - well, not counting routine maintenance on the Studer, but that I can deal with.
|
|
|
|
Post by saltyjames on Nov 15, 2019 20:55:48 GMT -6
They are the same frequency. But the low boost is lower and a little wider than the cut circuit. This means when you set the bass to 20 or 30 and turn up both boost and cut you are adding subs bass and 60-90hz yet still cutting some of the lower mud as well as some upper low mids. It's easier to see on paper.
It's one of the reasons it doesn't matter what eq you use. (Sure Tube ones are sweeter sounding), but most eq's with a Q control can do this same thing.
|
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Nov 15, 2019 21:17:23 GMT -6
They are the same frequency. But the low boost is lower and a little wider than the cut circuit. This means when you set the bass to 20 or 30 and turn up both boost and cut you are adding subs bass and 60-90hz yet still cutting some of the lower mud as well as some upper low mids. It's easier to see on paper. It's one of the reasons it doesn't matter what eq you use. (Sure Tube ones are sweeter sounding), but most eq's with a Q control can do this same thing. Only if they can stack bands. Many (or most) EQs can't do that, or do it very well, especially at the extremes.
Tubes have nothing whatsoever to do with it. Lots of great engineers actually prefer the SS Pultecs.
Also, you evidently have not looked at, or do not understand, the Pultec frequency charts posted elsewhere in this thread.
|
|
|
|
Post by saltyjames on Nov 18, 2019 6:47:24 GMT -6
Rude, as usual.
I don't need to look at pictures, I have known how they work for years.
|
|
