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Post by christopher on Nov 10, 2019 14:00:26 GMT -6
one thing I’m pretty sure is true.. it’s the same as cooking. There’s recipes, same ingredients, some chefs stand out and can deliver the same amazing results over and over, and nobody can copy it. A different chef can do their own thing and be just as good maybe, but rarely ever identical copy even though it’s the same ingredients. It’s that individual character that makes it interesting.
In the business food world, I guess there’s psychology involved to make money. I’m thinking fast food recipes. Cheap ingredients, playing to expectations, confirmation biases.. Just because fast food sells the most, doesn’t mean you should model your meals after the taste. The pictures and marketing does the selling, not the taste. The food doesn’t look like the picture, or even taste edible if you really think about it.
I think too many engineers in this current music business climate think that ‘tasting like the fast food’ will bring them success. Really it’s the pictures and marketing and confirmations, along with the recipe, it all ads to the success. If you have just one part of that puzzle, probably won’t get far. A truer high quality sound will probably get you further. I like to hope so anyway. Same as the new fast food chains.. they are at least marketing like they are trying to get back to real ingredients, fresh produce, never frozen meat, no preservatives etc. Imagine trying to grow to be the next McDonalds while trying to taste just like current McDonalds. Ha.. good luck with that.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 10, 2019 14:41:21 GMT -6
You miss his point 100%. How is sitting in on your own session versus working somewhere and watching 150 other peoples sessions the same? You don't learn much sitting in on your own session. You don't have any idea what you're gonna learn watching 150 other peoples ssessions until you've done it. I don't see many template's in action in serious creative recording sessions. Every single mixer has a template. Every single one. Even if they don’t realize it. That’s how they’re able to pump stuff out. They’re even starting to sell their templates now btw. Watch this video of rick beato analyzing Andy Wallace. Notice how every kick snare bass etc are identical. It wouldn’t matter what session you sat it on the moves/actions would be virtually the Same. It’s not a bad thing either. You hire CLA bc you want that CLA sound. That CLA “sound” is in fact a “template.” I don’t know the op but what I gathered from the original post was that he wanted to be able to mix is OWN stuff. He’s trying to get his own music to sound the way he wants it. And to me the best way is to sit it on one song and try to mix the rest of the album using the PRO track as the ultimate reference. I honestly don’t think there is a better way than that. NOT ONE professional engineer I've worked with has or had a template and I've worked with a few. Even on a album not every song is the same - that would make for a really boring album.
And I'm not interested in watching any videos because you can't learn to mix from a video.
You are not CLA. Even if you had his "template" you would not be CLA because you don't have the knowledge and experience to understand why he does what he does - which I personally don't like, he's the poster boy for "cookie cutter" mixing. That being said, if you were to have the opportunity to observe him in the studio over a number of projects I would bet money that he doesn't stick to his "template" on the songs he mixes - it's only a starting point. And starting points are personal things - what works for one person may not and probably will not work for another. Not that CLA is going to tell you that because he makes a pile of money teaching his "method" to suckers who think that if they pay him a few thou for a week long seminar that will make them a professional engineer like CLA - which it won't. All it will do is make them poorer and CLA richer - in an environment when even a guy like CLA needs all the work he can get. (Do you really think those guys would be wasting their time doing seminars if there was enough work to go around?) And I've never heard of ONE person - not one - who became a professional engineer because he paid for a "mixing with the masters" seminar to learn somebody's "template". That's for rich suckers.
Dig it - NO TWO SNARE DRUMS SOUND THE SAME. Not only that, but no two drummers will sound the same EVEN USING THE SAME DRUM. You can compoud that for pretty much every instrument, so even if you do use a "template" you'll be constantly diverging from it - unless you sample replace everything and that's not real engineering - that's being a hack.
I'll admit - I do use a "template" of sorts - it's called "ZEROING OUT THE BOARD". Most guys do that. You start with a clean slate. Then you use the most important piece of gear you possess - that's called your "EARS", which are actually there for reasons other than holding your hat up or keeping your glasses from falling off.
There's another basic "template" that everybody uses, which is the order of channels you use on the board. Not the settings of those channels, the ORDER, so that you always reach for the same thing in the (approximate) same place. NOT the settings, just where the drums live and in what order, the bass, the guitars, the keyboards, the horns, the vocals, FX returns, usually in approximately that order (with spare open channels to accommodate different numbers/channels of particular instruments.) You also set up your submix assigns the same way and often the assigns to your processors. NOT the settings, the assigns. With experience you may find you have rough starting points on particular processors, but that will vary with the individual units and your personal taste - which will change with your experience.
But none of that has much of anything to do with how you actually use them, which depends on the material and performance. It's just something you do so you don't have to blunder around trying to remember which channel (or send, etc.) is what. It's like learning where the doors are on a car and which pedal does what.
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Post by porkyman on Nov 10, 2019 15:31:25 GMT -6
Every single mixer has a template. Every single one. Even if they don’t realize it. That’s how they’re able to pump stuff out. They’re even starting to sell their templates now btw. Watch this video of rick beato analyzing Andy Wallace. Notice how every kick snare bass etc are identical. It wouldn’t matter what session you sat it on the moves/actions would be virtually the Same. It’s not a bad thing either. You hire CLA bc you want that CLA sound. That CLA “sound” is in fact a “template.” I don’t know the op but what I gathered from the original post was that he wanted to be able to mix is OWN stuff. He’s trying to get his own music to sound the way he wants it. And to me the best way is to sit it on one song and try to mix the rest of the album using the PRO track as the ultimate reference. I honestly don’t think there is a better way than that. NOT ONE professional engineer I've worked with has or had a template and I've worked with a few. Even on a album not every song is the same - that would make for a really boring album.
And I'm not interested in watching any videos because you can't learn to mix from a video.
You are not CLA. Even if you had his "template" you would not be CLA because you don't have the knowledge and experience to understand why he does what he does - which I personally don't like, he's the poster boy for "cookie cutter" mixing. That being said, if you were to have the opportunity to observe him in the studio over a number of projects I would bet money that he doesn't stick to his "template" on the songs he mixes - it's only a starting point. And starting points are personal things - what works for one person may not and probably will not work for another. Not that CLA is going to tell you that because he makes a pile of money teaching his "method" to suckers who think that if they pay him a few thou for a week long seminar that will make them a professional engineer like CLA - which it won't. All it will do is make them poorer and CLA richer - in an environment when even a guy like CLA needs all the work he can get. (Do you really think those guys would be wasting their time doing seminars if there was enough work to go around?) And I've never heard of ONE person - not one - who became a professional engineer because he paid for a "mixing with the masters" seminar to learn somebody's "template". That's for rich suckers.
Dig it - NO TWO SNARE DRUMS SOUND THE SAME. Not only that, but no two drummers will sound the same EVEN USING THE SAME DRUM. You can compoud that for pretty much every instrument, so even if you do use a "template" you'll be constantly diverging from it - unless you sample replace everything and that's not real engineering - that's being a hack.
I'll admit - I do use a "template" of sorts - it's called "ZEROING OUT THE BOARD". Most guys do that. You start with a clean slate. Then you use the most important piece of gear you possess - that's called your "EARS", which are actually there for reasons other than holding your hat up or keeping your glasses from falling off.
There's another basic "template" that everybody uses, which is the order of channels you use on the board. Not the settings of those channels, the ORDER, so that you always reach for the same thing in the (approximate) same place. NOT the settings, just where the drums live and in what order, the bass, the guitars, the keyboards, the horns, the vocals, FX returns, usually in approximately that order (with spare open channels to accommodate different numbers/channels of particular instruments.) You also set up your submix assigns the same way and often the assigns to your processors. NOT the settings, the assigns. With experience you may find you have rough starting points on particular processors, but that will vary with the individual units and your personal taste - which will change with your experience.
But none of that has much of anything to do with how you actually use them, which depends on the material and performance. It's just something you do so you don't have to blunder around trying to remember which channel (or send, etc.) is what. It's like learning where the doors are on a car and which pedal does what.
You guys are so ridiculous. Everybody has a template. Everybody has a template bc they are ppl and ppl are creatures of habit. Everybody sets faders to zero. Who cares. Doesn’t mean they’re not gonna use the same chains and techniques they use on every mix. It doesn’t matter that every drum/drummer is unique when you’re using samples. If you watched the video you’d know that when I say identical I mean they are literally the exact same sample for every single band. Of course hard work/experience are important. But there are young engineers who are every bit as good as the old (learned the hard way put the time in) guys and they haven’t been on the planet long enough to have either. In the future you will be able to pick the E you want and ai will do the rest. Will it be exact? No. But you’ll still be able to tweak from there and make it your own. It’s already happening to the mastering guys. The mix guys are next. Not what guys trying to make a living want to hear but it’s the truth.
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 10, 2019 15:47:07 GMT -6
In that reguard then, practice practice practice practice. Learn the tools inside and out. Also put limits on yourself. It so easy to have 439002389740923802493 plugins that do 3283023984720395208952 different things. Fuck that. Pick 4 tools, do a mix with only those. Then another. Then another. You'll learn if you like Tool A vs B quickly. Then add one more tool and take away another. Having restrictions and limits really pushes you to be creative to get something you want. I did something similar by forcing myself to mix 100% out of the box for about 5 months. Granted at the time...i had an SSL duality to play with, but I really learned how the console liked to work and how to push it in the right direction. Plus a multitude of other things from that. I don't know if any of this will work for you, but it helped me a lot. Then also just being around other engineers. Other mixes, being present in other sessions, observing. Which I realize is what you want to do but your going about it wrong. Find local people that do this too. Become friends. Just hang out. Watch. Then you'll learn more and more. Just immersing yourself in it will payoff way more than having a session with someone and watching them one time. Build a good relationship with some people and you'll get to sit in on tons of sessions, start helping with them, lending ideas, and soon helping drive the mix. It's way more fun that way too I think.. Not trying to sound preachy. Just laying it out there to think about. I get all that, for sure. It’s just not going to fit with my life right now. I’m a 40 year old dude with a wife, two little kids and a full time job that I can’t walk away from. I’m not trying to do this for a living, and I just don’t have the time to log hundreds of hours. I’ve been doing this for a while, and probably have logged that many already. I’m just looking for another way to get better. Sometimes I feel like I’m just fumbling around in the dark. I agree with you on the tool choices. I stopped buying new stuff a while back and am just concentrating on learning what I have, which feels like it will take a lifetime. That is fair. I can understand that. But again, look at who you spend time with. Not counting your family of course. Do you hang with other musicians? Other engineers? People of the same mind set that inspire creativity? That's what I mean. There is the theory you are the average of the 5 people you spend the most time with. Especially if you aren't trying to make this a living, then bolstering yourself it other ways can really pay off. I know it might seem like a life time haha perhaps that means you have lots of gear! Which is cool! Just limit yourself here and there. Create puzzles for yourself. I agree that trying to mix things you don't record will really help. Telefunken, Cambridge, and a few others have some nice multi tracks available to experiment on. None of them are "perfect" sessions. And that alone will pose challenges. Then there are places where you can do mix competitions which are fun to try. Even if you don't submit you can often listen to what others are doing with the same material.
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Post by wiz on Nov 10, 2019 16:17:10 GMT -6
I don't get you guys...
how could he NOT learn from watching someone else mix his stuff?
You always learn watching someone else, even if its NOT what to do.....
Even if its just workflow decisions....
So much grouchiness, rather than positivity.
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 10, 2019 16:39:58 GMT -6
I don't get you guys... how could he NOT learn from watching someone else mix his stuff? You always learn watching someone else, even if its NOT what to do..... Even if its just workflow decisions.... So much grouchiness, rather than positivity. Cheers Wiz I think he would learn something for sure. Might not be about mixing but certainly would learn a lot. There is also something worth I think mentioning which is...not to mix his own stuff perhaps. There is nothing wrong with mixing demos, but there is something to be said about just having someone that is better at it and does it full time just do it. That can be fun in it's own way. Finding someone you like working with and letting them put their own touch on it. For mixing and mastering. It's not a bad thing. I think often people take the "i want to do everything myself" route when you really don't have to.
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Post by christopher on Nov 10, 2019 17:25:00 GMT -6
Thanks porkyman for sharing the AW video. (Cool username!) I think he’s a little jumping to conclusions saying it’s the same samples? Unless he shows some spectral stuff, nulls?. The gate+mult mixing engineers can get any sample sound w/out samples, takes a little longer, and more channels and processing.. 96 channel SSL? ... but they also don’t have to waste time to hunt for samples if they go that route. AW did say he liked to use samples on the reverb sends though, to make the ambience consistent. Just wanted to point out, it’s never as easy as we think, a unique ear to guide things required, even if a template is used to start a project.
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Post by mike on Nov 10, 2019 17:41:13 GMT -6
I don't get you guys... how could he NOT learn from watching someone else mix his stuff? You always learn watching someone else, even if its NOT what to do..... Even if its just workflow decisions.... So much grouchiness, rather than positivity. Cheers Wiz I couldn't agree more,.... having someone else I respected mix my tracks while I sat next to him and periodically discussed things not only helped me step back for a fresh and objective perspective. It was what I learned the most from.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Nov 10, 2019 17:46:44 GMT -6
It depends on what you call a template. Everybody I worked with had their standard console layout and in the '60s, most studios had a standard setup where musicians and microphones were placed. The "build a studio for the session" mentality showed up in the '70s when studio time was still being billed to the labels but we were recording bands and not session musicians.
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Post by EmRR on Nov 10, 2019 18:04:47 GMT -6
You guys are so ridiculous. Everybody has a template. Everybody has a template bc they are ppl and ppl are creatures of habit. Everybody sets faders to zero. Who cares. Doesn’t mean they’re not gonna use the same chains and techniques they use on every mix. It doesn’t matter that every drum/drummer is unique when you’re using samples. If you watched the video you’d know that when I say identical I mean they are literally the exact same sample for every single band. Of course hard work/experience are important. But there are young engineers who are every bit as good as the old (learned the hard way put the time in) guys and they haven’t been on the planet long enough to have either. In the future you will be able to pick the E you want and ai will do the rest. Will it be exact? No. But you’ll still be able to tweak from there and make it your own. It’s already happening to the mastering guys. The mix guys are next. Not what guys trying to make a living want to hear but it’s the truth. Why are you here then? Wait for the AI. Lotsa guys aren't using samples. Lotsa guys don't use the same chains on every mix. I sure don't.
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Post by EmRR on Nov 10, 2019 18:07:16 GMT -6
I don't get you guys... how could he NOT learn from watching someone else mix his stuff? You always learn watching someone else, even if its NOT what to do..... Even if its just workflow decisions.... So much grouchiness, rather than positivity. Cheers Wiz It's not either/or, it's which has the greater value. The OP can surely make up his mind which ideas to pursue based on his available time.
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mhep
Full Member
Posts: 36
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Post by mhep on Nov 10, 2019 18:50:50 GMT -6
A couple of different times in the 20+ years I've been doing this I've had something I tracked move in a different direction than I was used to come mix time. I've reached out to a couple different people I respected over the years and had them work it over. About $500 each is what I paid, IIRC. It's been years. They both knew the tracks I was giving them would be of reasonably high quality. It was kind of a one-on-one mixing tutoring (done in their off-time, and based on my goals) and was money well spent. I was not there for the process, but received the sessions so I could work through how they'd accomplished it with my tracks. Obviously a level of trust is required.
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Post by chessparov on Nov 10, 2019 20:36:39 GMT -6
IMHO quite analogous to becoming a strong Chess Master... Internet Chess equals = High volume of Low to (sometimes) Medium grade learning. One on one "Over the Board" learning/practice, equals Higher Quality learning. So... Mix;) the two methods. A LOT. Spirit stirred not shaken! Chris
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 10, 2019 21:28:07 GMT -6
Perhaps you might look at this from another angle. Ask yourself what do you want to sound like. Then figure out what about that sound can be done within your personal situation. I think John makes a valid point about gaining true experience, there is no substitute.
The next question I would ask is what are your goals. If they're doable at home, that's great. But sometimes goals require you to be immersed in the culture.
Working around someone more experienced can only help, but it might not get you where you really want to go until those other questions are answered.
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Post by indiehouse on Nov 11, 2019 5:40:09 GMT -6
I don't get you guys... how could he NOT learn from watching someone else mix his stuff? You always learn watching someone else, even if its NOT what to do..... Even if its just workflow decisions.... So much grouchiness, rather than positivity. Cheers Wiz I couldn't agree more,.... having someone else I respected mix my tracks while I sat next to him and periodically discussed things not only helped me step back for a fresh and objective perspective. It was what I learned the most from. This is exactly my thoughts, or at least what I’m hoping this would accomplish.
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Post by indiehouse on Nov 11, 2019 6:01:31 GMT -6
I get all that, for sure. It’s just not going to fit with my life right now. I’m a 40 year old dude with a wife, two little kids and a full time job that I can’t walk away from. I’m not trying to do this for a living, and I just don’t have the time to log hundreds of hours. I’ve been doing this for a while, and probably have logged that many already. I’m just looking for another way to get better. Sometimes I feel like I’m just fumbling around in the dark. I agree with you on the tool choices. I stopped buying new stuff a while back and am just concentrating on learning what I have, which feels like it will take a lifetime. That is fair. I can understand that. But again, look at who you spend time with. Not counting your family of course. Do you hang with other musicians? Other engineers? People of the same mind set that inspire creativity? That's what I mean. There is the theory you are the average of the 5 people you spend the most time with. Especially if you aren't trying to make this a living, then bolstering yourself it other ways can really pay off. I know it might seem like a life time haha perhaps that means you have lots of gear! Which is cool! Just limit yourself here and there. Create puzzles for yourself. I agree that trying to mix things you don't record will really help. Telefunken, Cambridge, and a few others have some nice multi tracks available to experiment on. None of them are "perfect" sessions. And that alone will pose challenges. Then there are places where you can do mix competitions which are fun to try. Even if you don't submit you can often listen to what others are doing with the same material. Right on. Mostly, I hang out with my kids. They don’t know jack about mixing music, so there’s that. Before wife/kids/full-time job, I surrounded myself with like-minded people. I’ve been involved in recording for over twenty years now and have been mixing other people’s music for the past 10 years. I’m constantly recording/mixing something for someone else, so much so that I have to step back from that to make time for my own creative endeavors. There’s just not enough time. I envy you guys that have that time to “hang out”. I’m constantly reading/learning about this stuff. Never stopped. I’m a nerd about it. All that to say, I didn’t mean to come across as if I was a newbie. I’m pretty well educated in the practices and techniques of music production, but want to learn more and get better. Thought that having a “mentor”, even for just one song, would go a long way. I’m looking for some of those “ah-ha” moments. Sometimes when I’m mixing, I feel I’m just stumbling around in the dark. I think if someone who is really good at mixing were to mix a song that I’ve already mixed, that could go a long way and open my eyes. And having that in my own space and hearing that on my own monitors could be invaluable to calibrating my ears to hear things in a new way.
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Post by indiehouse on Nov 11, 2019 6:15:09 GMT -6
Lol. I bet you walked up hills both ways in the snow to school every day. There is exactly 0 difference between paying to sit in on a session and sweeping floors to sit in on a session which in all actuality IS paying to sit in on a session. The “template” IS listening and observing. You know the exact moves the engineer made and when. So you set your faders and listen. You know the E went straight for the snare so you try to figure out what he was hearing. Then you set comp/eq/fx etc the way he set them and listen. It’s like you get to sit in on a session as many times as you want without sweeping any floors. Every advancement man makes is a “shortcut.” You don’t have to do things the old/hard way anymore. That’s why they call them “advancements.” There are no hills in central Oklahoma.
The difference between paying to sit in on a session and working your way up in a studio is the same as paying for one meal in a good restaurant and working in the kitchen under a master chef for two years.
The "template" is observing what was done on one song. You know the exact moves ONE engineer did on ONE song. You don't understand why because you lack the background to understand. And you don't have the foggiest notion of how that might or might not apply to another song or how it relates to other circumstances. You know how he set the comp and FX for ONE SONG with ON particular snare drum but you don't know or uinderstand WHY he did what he did or what he might have done on a difference song or with another drum, let alone a different type of music. YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE DOING. You're just working from rote memorization of an isolated example.
And you haven't done squat to actually develop your ear, which requires working with a variety of material over a length of time, because it's an evoluitionary process.
That's stupid. You don't understand what you're doing.
Every advancement man makes is NOT a "shortcut". If you really believe that your educational experience is sorely lacking in evey popssible way. It's like using a cheat sheet to pass your exams. You don't actually know anything when you're done.
There are no shortcuts to learning or understanding. You MUST put in the work or you're still the same clueless person you were when you started, except that you now have the added handicap of THINKING you know something that yopu neither know nor understand.
Apologies for my bluntness.
While I appreciate your contribution, your posts can be a bit tiring. The old “get off my lawn” curmudgeon is an unpleasant aroma. Maybe you didn’t intend this, but the assumption that a person doesn't know anything because they didn’t work their way up in a studio is wrong. Some of us here aren’t “stupid snot nosed little kids who don’t know anything”. I’ve spent half of my life around this stuff. I never presume that I don’t have anything else to learn. I am humbled by those who are better. I am always striving to be better. I don’t have the time to hang out in recording studios all the time, nor am I willing to quit my job to go sweep floors at one. Let’s be real.
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Post by svart on Nov 11, 2019 7:15:36 GMT -6
NOT ONE professional engineer I've worked with has or had a template and I've worked with a few. Even on a album not every song is the same - that would make for a really boring album.
And I'm not interested in watching any videos because you can't learn to mix from a video.
You are not CLA. Even if you had his "template" you would not be CLA because you don't have the knowledge and experience to understand why he does what he does - which I personally don't like, he's the poster boy for "cookie cutter" mixing. That being said, if you were to have the opportunity to observe him in the studio over a number of projects I would bet money that he doesn't stick to his "template" on the songs he mixes - it's only a starting point. And starting points are personal things - what works for one person may not and probably will not work for another. Not that CLA is going to tell you that because he makes a pile of money teaching his "method" to suckers who think that if they pay him a few thou for a week long seminar that will make them a professional engineer like CLA - which it won't. All it will do is make them poorer and CLA richer - in an environment when even a guy like CLA needs all the work he can get. (Do you really think those guys would be wasting their time doing seminars if there was enough work to go around?) And I've never heard of ONE person - not one - who became a professional engineer because he paid for a "mixing with the masters" seminar to learn somebody's "template". That's for rich suckers.
Dig it - NO TWO SNARE DRUMS SOUND THE SAME. Not only that, but no two drummers will sound the same EVEN USING THE SAME DRUM. You can compoud that for pretty much every instrument, so even if you do use a "template" you'll be constantly diverging from it - unless you sample replace everything and that's not real engineering - that's being a hack.
I'll admit - I do use a "template" of sorts - it's called "ZEROING OUT THE BOARD". Most guys do that. You start with a clean slate. Then you use the most important piece of gear you possess - that's called your "EARS", which are actually there for reasons other than holding your hat up or keeping your glasses from falling off.
There's another basic "template" that everybody uses, which is the order of channels you use on the board. Not the settings of those channels, the ORDER, so that you always reach for the same thing in the (approximate) same place. NOT the settings, just where the drums live and in what order, the bass, the guitars, the keyboards, the horns, the vocals, FX returns, usually in approximately that order (with spare open channels to accommodate different numbers/channels of particular instruments.) You also set up your submix assigns the same way and often the assigns to your processors. NOT the settings, the assigns. With experience you may find you have rough starting points on particular processors, but that will vary with the individual units and your personal taste - which will change with your experience.
But none of that has much of anything to do with how you actually use them, which depends on the material and performance. It's just something you do so you don't have to blunder around trying to remember which channel (or send, etc.) is what. It's like learning where the doors are on a car and which pedal does what.
You guys are so ridiculous. Everybody has a template. Everybody has a template bc they are ppl and ppl are creatures of habit. Everybody sets faders to zero. Who cares. Doesn’t mean they’re not gonna use the same chains and techniques they use on every mix. It doesn’t matter that every drum/drummer is unique when you’re using samples. If you watched the video you’d know that when I say identical I mean they are literally the exact same sample for every single band. Of course hard work/experience are important. But there are young engineers who are every bit as good as the old (learned the hard way put the time in) guys and they haven’t been on the planet long enough to have either. In the future you will be able to pick the E you want and ai will do the rest. Will it be exact? No. But you’ll still be able to tweak from there and make it your own. It’s already happening to the mastering guys. The mix guys are next. Not what guys trying to make a living want to hear but it’s the truth. You're right. Even if they zero out everything, they will always find their way back to their "favorite" settings, their favorite gear, the "sweet spot" of the gear, etc. Their "sound" is just the sum of how they use the gear according to their ear. John just likes being contrary and I think he lives in a fantasy world sometimes. Everything new is shit, nothing new can be good, the old ways are best, up is down, black is white, etc. And yes, tons of mixers DO use templates. Many even tell you outright that they do. CLA blatantly tells folks that his assistants set everything up the way he likes, including the inserts, sends, etc. While I don't care for him in general, he has a distinct sound and it's absolutely a sum of the parts.. So much so that there was a thread in this forum arguing over whether or not the sound of his "special" bluestripe 1176 has been accurately modeled by the BLA Bluey, which I find quite ridiculous in it's own way.. But I digress on that. It just goes to show that folks are inherently agreeing that using certain gear in certain ways is key to getting someone's sound, which also means they inherently agree that to do so means there is at least a measure of "template" to getting a certain sound.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 11, 2019 9:11:10 GMT -6
After all the posts here, I think the only thing for Indiehouse to do is try it. Since he has experience, he's developed his listening skills. has mixed for others, and has been thinking of working with a pro mixer for a while, why not just try it? The worst that can happen is he'll be out $250 or less for a few hours of tutelage.
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 11, 2019 10:31:51 GMT -6
That is fair. I can understand that. But again, look at who you spend time with. Not counting your family of course. Do you hang with other musicians? Other engineers? People of the same mind set that inspire creativity? That's what I mean. There is the theory you are the average of the 5 people you spend the most time with. Especially if you aren't trying to make this a living, then bolstering yourself it other ways can really pay off. I know it might seem like a life time haha perhaps that means you have lots of gear! Which is cool! Just limit yourself here and there. Create puzzles for yourself. I agree that trying to mix things you don't record will really help. Telefunken, Cambridge, and a few others have some nice multi tracks available to experiment on. None of them are "perfect" sessions. And that alone will pose challenges. Then there are places where you can do mix competitions which are fun to try. Even if you don't submit you can often listen to what others are doing with the same material. Right on. Mostly, I hang out with my kids. They don’t know jack about mixing music, so there’s that. Before wife/kids/full-time job, I surrounded myself with like-minded people. I’ve been involved in recording for over twenty years now and have been mixing other people’s music for the past 10 years. I’m constantly recording/mixing something for someone else, so much so that I have to step back from that to make time for my own creative endeavors. There’s just not enough time. I envy you guys that have that time to “hang out”. I’m constantly reading/learning about this stuff. Never stopped. I’m a nerd about it. All that to say, I didn’t mean to come across as if I was a newbie. I’m pretty well educated in the practices and techniques of music production, but want to learn more and get better. Thought that having a “mentor”, even for just one song, would go a long way. I’m looking for some of those “ah-ha” moments. Sometimes when I’m mixing, I feel I’m just stumbling around in the dark. I think if someone who is really good at mixing were to mix a song that I’ve already mixed, that could go a long way and open my eyes. And having that in my own space and hearing that on my own monitors could be invaluable to calibrating my ears to hear things in a new way. yeah man I think we are saying the same thing just a bit different. A mentor is exactly what I guess Im saying, but to me, that isn't really someone you pay to go hang out with and watch/learn mixing and stuff from. You just go work with each other. I got invited to sit in on mix down stuff with some people just to be in the room and watch through it and occasionally even lend my opinion or ideas. I had a blast doing that and learned a ton. However, if paying someone to do that is what you want to do and ultimately have to do then by all means go for it. But I think you'd get more out of it over time especially if you built up just a good relationship with person X and became good friends. That's my point. and of course I did not mean to come across as calling you a novice. I know from kicking around here that you have plenty of skills and experience.
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Post by indiehouse on Nov 11, 2019 11:53:35 GMT -6
I listened to your link from 2013 while driving. Sounds like you have some solid mixing skills. However something was preventing me from enjoying it fully and connecting to the songs. But it turned out to be a simple thing: there’s some low mid build-up in the 200-1k range. All your tracks are nice and full in that area, but it’s masking harmonics, and also has some slightly audible room nodes. Using the car EQ a quick cut at 200 about -5dB to -10dB depending on the song.. and @1k -3dB. It pushed the singer and guitar amps a little further back in the sound stage, room nodes vanished. Suddenly I really started enjoying it. Your sub area sounds great, and your mix balance is great, so maybe mastering needs revisiting? Just a thought. The low mid build up can be cut during mastering and sound like a million great records. The other way to deal with it is to choose which instruments will feature low mids, & which will be cut away. I felt like these vocals and guitars benefit from a cut, as it gives them more bite without boosting any highs. However drums and bass, maybe you’d want the low mids, or not. I think seeing how another person mixes your songs will be a great idea, defiantly do it! I’m interested to see how your new songs turn out. Took your feedback to heart, thanks. It is the mids that I have the hardest time with. Sometimes I feel like everything is muddy, so I end up cutting 200-300 out of most everything, and my mix feels anemic. I tend to cut a bunch at 600-800, trying to get rid of my boxy, small room sound. Then I start to feel like everything needs a cut right there, and then everything feels sorta distant and lacks a little punch. That is my weakest area. I notice it too when I A/B a reference mix. The reference almost feels scooped in comparison, and I have a hard time with what it is I should be cutting.
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Post by chessparov on Nov 11, 2019 11:53:47 GMT -6
Since John Eppstein is that "(sometimes) Gruff guy with a heart of gold" (cue Neil Young!)... For someone (that means me!) with an otherwise Pollyanna demeanor, that Yin/Yang coaching chemistry, can be extremely effective. One of my best friends, who is also a Chess Master, is similar. We good naturedly bicker a bit. But God forbid anyone says anything uncalled for, to either of us. I value that "when the chips are down", we've got each other's back. I can tell John is the same way. If I had the time/inclination, to go for the International Master title (years back), my Buddy would've helped me get there. I'm a "Southerner" (Orange County, CA), but if I ever hung out with John up North, he'd certainly teach me a ton. Chris
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 11, 2019 13:29:08 GMT -6
You guys are so ridiculous. Everybody has a template. Everybody has a template bc they are ppl and ppl are creatures of habit. Everybody sets faders to zero. Who cares. Doesn’t mean they’re not gonna use the same chains and techniques they use on every mix. It doesn’t matter that every drum/drummer is unique when you’re using samples. If you watched the video you’d know that when I say identical I mean they are literally the exact same sample for every single band. If you're talking about a board setup template, sure. If you're talking about a mixing template, no. Every song is different. Using a "mix template" is a dervice to the song and the client. Hopefully, when you mature as an engineer you will come to understand this.
If you use samples as a routine "solution" you are doing a major disservice to bothe the client and the music. Speaking as a musician, I would NEVER allow an "engineer" who routinely uses sample replacement to get within 10 miles of my wortk. That's one on the most egregious things about "modern" music. It homogenizes the music and saps it of originality.
Those young engineers are not yet ready to mix serious projects. It's like children doing "paint by numbers" in a coloring book having the utter presumptuousness to try to exhibit their work in a major gallery.
It's ridiculous.
You have to learn to walk before you can run. What you're promoting is the equivalent of saying that people should be happy using a motorized wheelchair and be done with it.
Maybe you're ready to exhibit your work on the wall in kindergarden where all the mommies and daddys can praise the scribblings of their offspring.. You are neither ready nor qualified to inflict you product on the real world.
You have just insulted every real mastering engineer in the business.
In fact you have insulted every human in the world who has a sense ofg aesthetics.
It's the equivalent of saying that in the future every restaurant will be McDonald's.
Sure, there are robot "mastering services" and they're dirt cheap. You get what you pay for. There is no way in hell that I would ever use one of those "services" - in fact it is my belief that such "services" should be illegal, not only because they are detrimental to art but because they are detrimental to humanity.
The next step on that path is having all music, all art, and all human endeavor taken over by machines. That's a nightmare scenario out of a grade B sci-fi novel. Which was written by a robot.
What you are promoting is the death of music.
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Post by chessparov on Nov 11, 2019 13:53:50 GMT -6
Well IMHO as a (hopefully) intelligent layperson... It'd be an interesting experiment for, to anyone here starting to learn how to mix, to make some initial mixes. Then go back some time later, after improving their skils, and do another remix. Then compare the two, and have them evaluated by someone competent to do so. I wouldn't be surprised that if now and then, someone who has a boatload of natural talent, exceeds typical expectations. Another important factor IMHO would be the style of music. Hey, maybe I'll visit Spector for some Wall Of Sound hints! Chris
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 11, 2019 13:58:33 GMT -6
While I appreciate your contribution, your posts can be a bit tiring. The old “get off my lawn” curmudgeon is an unpleasant aroma. Maybe you didn’t intend this, but the assumption that a person doesn't know anything because they didn’t work their way up in a studio is wrong. Some of us here aren’t “stupid snot nosed little kids who don’t know anything”. I’ve spent half of my life around this stuff. I never presume that I don’t have anything else to learn. I am humbled by those who are better. I am always striving to be better. I don’t have the time to hang out in recording studios all the time, nor am I willing to quit my job to go sweep floors at one. Let’s be real. You misunderstand me. I don't want the kids to get off my lawn. But if they're on my lawn I expect them to mow.
Yes, it is quite possible to learn that art of mixing without proper mentoring and without coming up in a studio environment. It's just a thousand times harder and there are an infinite number of pitfalls and diversions that could otherwise be avoided.
I learned more in two years of working for Sandy Pearlman as a small garden rodent than I had in the previous 10 years of working on my own.
During that time I had the privilege of observing and learning from master engineers like Glenn Kolotkin and Corky Steziak. I watched a young kid named Ken Kessie go from being a flunky at The Automatt to a house engineer at the studio. Ken is now mixing sound for major motion pictures. There is no way he could have done that on his own.
You say that you always strive to be better. That's the exact opposite of what friend Porky is pushing - he wants all the work done for him by "templates" and AIs. He will never become a good engineer by relying on such shortcuts. He isn't interested in learning how to get a good drum sound by himself - he just sample replaces.
He thinks a music studio is a Xerox machine.
Sure, sometimes sample replacement might be necessary - when you can't get a decent sound out of what you've been fed and retracking is not an option - but it should only regarded as a last resort, not as a standard way of doing things.
I'm still learning and I'm almost 70 years old. I don't understand people who aren't interested in learning and who want everything handed them out of a can - or a computer.
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