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Post by wiz on Oct 31, 2019 4:26:24 GMT -6
...... before channels?
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Post by drsax on Oct 31, 2019 7:29:37 GMT -6
For me, 2 buss EQ if used at all, is very late in the mix. I take it as far as possible without and add it only if needed. A few times I have started a new mix forgetting that the EQ had been left on from previous work. Just left it on and those mixes still turned out nice.
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Post by svart on Oct 31, 2019 7:34:29 GMT -6
I used to, but I always found that I was fighting it in the mix. Lets say that I wanted more top end overall but I found that if I boosted the whole mix, I might get too much guitar amp hiss, so I'd end up cutting the guitar amp treble. I'd then find that the distortion on the bass might be too prominent, so I'd cut the top end of the bass guitar too.. and so on.
pretty soon I found that I was doing more EQ on each channel just to counteract the top end boost I thought I wanted, but as I cut things away on each channel I found the top end being too bright. Turns out it was just that each channel was masking what I wanted to hear, so it's just easier to do a little LPF on strategic channels than to boost too much top on the 2-bus.
And so on.
I guess the adage of "as I get better, I use less EQ" comes to mind.
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Post by soundintheround on Oct 31, 2019 10:24:18 GMT -6
I don't do it, but it's prob not a bad idea.
Goes along the same philosophy of mixing into a buss compressor.
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Post by notneeson on Oct 31, 2019 10:33:18 GMT -6
By the time the mix hits my Stam 4000 and a pair of 1073 clones, it usually needs the top lifted a hair.
That said, if you mix for hire you may get tracks that are all over the place and doing anything pro forma can bite you in the butt.
I also like a little 60hz (or so) boost, but that could be done on a drum and bass buss instead— I just don't tend to do a lot of submixing.
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 31, 2019 11:34:01 GMT -6
I used to always have the high “air” eq engaged on my vmp4000 (which I mixed into on the 2bus). I found that it made things more 3D sounding, and I could never find that sound in the box. There would inevitability be tracks where I’d have to low shelf the high end to compensate but it always seemed worth it.
That being said, after some careful examination of my recent mixes I’ve found that the high eq hurts the mix about 50% of the time so now I use it on a case by case basis. It’s still a great trick, it’s just not always called for.
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Post by swurveman on Oct 31, 2019 14:01:13 GMT -6
I always have my GML 8200 high shelf boosted about 3dB around 14k. I will often also do about 1.5 dB at 4k if I want a little more high mids. It's amazing how just the shelf opens everything up.
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Post by wiz on Oct 31, 2019 18:17:28 GMT -6
I have been re evaluating every step of my process after deciding to throw out a years worth of work on the next album, and start again. I decided as I have no time pressure, to just go back to the beginning and try and get the best process/sound... rather than the preconceived notions I have built up over the last 7 or so albums.... Its been really a breathe of fresh air. So I tried EQing the 2 buss first to see how it works out... its interesting. Someone mentioned the "Glueing" effect of 2 buss compression, YES thats exactly what I thought!!! Bob Olhsson would love you to chime in with your thoughts Cheers Wiz |
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Post by stratboy on Oct 31, 2019 18:37:37 GMT -6
I have been re evaluating every step of my process after deciding to throw out a years worth of work on the next album, and start again. I decided as I have no time pressure, to just go back to the beginning and try and get the best process/sound... rather than the preconceived notions I have built up over the last 7 or so albums.... Its been really a breathe of fresh air. So I tried EQing the 2 buss first to see how it works out... its interesting. Someone mentioned the "Glueing" effect of 2 buss compression, YES thats exactly what I thought!!! Bob Olhsson would love you to chime in with your thoughts Cheers Wiz Damn, Wiz; your stuff sounds pretty amazing as it is. Respect to you for not being satisfied with what I think most of us here who have heard your work would say is pretty outstanding. |
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Post by wiz on Oct 31, 2019 18:45:00 GMT -6
I have been re evaluating every step of my process after deciding to throw out a years worth of work on the next album, and start again. I decided as I have no time pressure, to just go back to the beginning and try and get the best process/sound... rather than the preconceived notions I have built up over the last 7 or so albums.... Its been really a breathe of fresh air. So I tried EQing the 2 buss first to see how it works out... its interesting. Someone mentioned the "Glueing" effect of 2 buss compression, YES thats exactly what I thought!!! Bob Olhsson would love you to chime in with your thoughts Cheers Wiz Damn, Wiz; your stuff sounds pretty amazing as it is. Respect to you for not being satisfied with what I think most of us here who have heard your work would say is pretty outstanding. Thats really kind of you, thank you..... Some days I just feel like I don't know shit!!!! 8) Cheers Wiz |
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 31, 2019 18:48:10 GMT -6
mixing into an EQ can be very cool and fun. Because it ends up pushing stuff and saturating certain parts of the EQ(assuming an analog one).
But both work just fine. I've done both.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 31, 2019 19:58:00 GMT -6
Mixing into an eq means you are adjusting the differences in each channel. It's a very nice "glue" that won't castrate the dynamics. I typically do it in groups.
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Post by wiz on Oct 31, 2019 20:01:40 GMT -6
Mixing into an eq means you are adjusting the differences in each channel. It's a very nice "glue" that won't castrate the dynamics. I typically do it in groups. I am finding it quite interesting.... I like the idea of groups, will give that a try.... Not that I have many tracks...8) Cheers Wiz |
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 31, 2019 20:07:07 GMT -6
I have ended up sending my 2 buss to my audioscape g comp and it by inserts to my Wa273eq to its eq and hitting its output transformers, my sessions start there. I send all individual like tracks to buses and mix from them although I do tweak individual tracks.
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Post by wiz on Oct 31, 2019 20:10:03 GMT -6
I have ended up sending my 2 buss to my audioscape g comp and it by inserts to my Wa273eq to its eq and hitting its output transformers, my sessions start there. I send all individual like tracks to buses and mix from them although I do tweak individual tracks. How well matched is the WA273 ? Cheers Wiz |
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 31, 2019 22:11:12 GMT -6
mixing into an EQ can be very cool and fun. Because it ends up pushing stuff and saturating certain parts of the EQ(assuming an analog one). But both work just fine. I've done both. "Saturating certain parts of the EQ"? I guess it depends on what you're using for EQ, no?
When I do use EQ on the 2 buss I mix into it, just like mixing into a buss comp. I never run into the issue of saturating the EQ, but that's because I use a pair of the old Altec/Lamgevin 7 band passive EQs and it would take a hell of a lot to saturate the inductors in those. They're also extremely gentle EQs, only a maximum of 6 dB cut or boost per band and I rarely use more than 2 or 3, somewhere in the upper ranges. The device I'm using for makeup gain is an A-Designs KGB 2 instrument DI/preamp that has so much headroom and potential gain that it never gets even remotely close to saturation. It's capable of driving pretty much any professional tape machine well into the red without clipping.
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 31, 2019 22:27:47 GMT -6
mixing into an EQ can be very cool and fun. Because it ends up pushing stuff and saturating certain parts of the EQ(assuming an analog one). But both work just fine. I've done both. "Saturating certain parts of the EQ"? I guess it depends on what you're using for EQ, no?
When I do use EQ on the 2 buss I mix into it, just like mixing into a buss comp. I never run into the issue of saturating the EQ, but that's because I use a pair of the old Altec/Lamgevin 7 band passive EQs and it would take a hell of a lot to saturate the inductors in those. They're also extremely gentle EQs, only a maximum of 6 dB cut or boost per band and I rarely use more than 2 or 3, somewhere in the upper ranges. The device I'm using for makeup gain is an A-Designs KGB 2 instrument DI/preamp that has so much headroom and potential gain that it never gets even remotely close to saturation. It's capable of driving pretty much any professional tape machine well into the red without clipping.
Sure everything depends on everything. Most of my EQs have transformers, certainly not all but the main ones used for shaping a buss do. Part of the reason for their appeal on the bus I'd say. So yes if your adding 3 dB at 10khz then you are driving that frequency hotter into the output of the EQ and hotter into whatever else comes after the EQ. then there are other types that have selectable bands even. So you are adding more and more circuity to the signal(which id good analog opinion). I never do buss eq pre compression personally. but Im certainly not using Eq for makeup gain. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 31, 2019 23:12:43 GMT -6
I have been re evaluating every step of my process after deciding to throw out a years worth of work on the next album, and start again. I decided as I have no time pressure, to just go back to the beginning and try and get the best process/sound... rather than the preconceived notions I have built up over the last 7 or so albums.... Its been really a breathe of fresh air. So I tried EQing the 2 buss first to see how it works out... its interesting. Someone mentioned the "Glueing" effect of 2 buss compression, YES thats exactly what I thought!!! Bob Olhsson would love you to chime in with your thoughts Cheers Wiz It’s ultimately the source. EVERY TIME. You sounded amazing to me the first couple of times I heard you - I didn’t really care about how well it was recorded. Keep doing what you’re doing. |
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 31, 2019 23:26:56 GMT -6
"Saturating certain parts of the EQ"? I guess it depends on what you're using for EQ, no?
When I do use EQ on the 2 buss I mix into it, just like mixing into a buss comp. I never run into the issue of saturating the EQ, but that's because I use a pair of the old Altec/Lamgevin 7 band passive EQs and it would take a hell of a lot to saturate the inductors in those. They're also extremely gentle EQs, only a maximum of 6 dB cut or boost per band and I rarely use more than 2 or 3, somewhere in the upper ranges. The device I'm using for makeup gain is an A-Designs KGB 2 instrument DI/preamp that has so much headroom and potential gain that it never gets even remotely close to saturation. It's capable of driving pretty much any professional tape machine well into the red without clipping.
Sure everything depends on everything. Most of my EQs have transformers, certainly not all but the main ones used for shaping a buss do. Part of the reason for their appeal on the bus I'd say. So yes if your adding 3 dB at 10khz then you are driving that frequency hotter into the output of the EQ and hotter into whatever else comes after the EQ. then there are other types that have selectable bands even. So you are adding more and more circuity to the signal(which id good analog opinion). I never do buss eq pre compression personally. but Im certainly not using Eq for makeup gain. I don't think you quite understood what I said.
My buss EQs are PASSIVE*. They have no gain - in fact they have about a 14 dB insertion loss at the flat setting. therefore they REQUIRE makeup gain from an external preamp in order to get back to line level. They aren't driving anything hotter.
When a band is set to "boost" what it actually means is that it's cutting less.
The EQs use toroidal inductors that are approximately the size of an average New England cake doughnut, two per band. They're BIG, heavy air core inductors and the odds of them saturating at any sort of line level are nil. They also generate NO noise (except the thermal background) and no significant distortion.
You can ask Bob O about these EQs - they're the same ones that the famous Motown mastering EQs were based on.
* - and by "passive" I mean PASSIVE. No internal make-up amp. Nary a tube or transistor to be found in there. No power cord. None of this modern crap about calling something with a passive EQ circuit into a gain stage "passive" because such a device really isn't passive strictly speaking, there's gain in the box so it ain't passive.
My EQs are passive. They require external makeup gain.
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 1, 2019 0:27:49 GMT -6
Sure everything depends on everything. Most of my EQs have transformers, certainly not all but the main ones used for shaping a buss do. Part of the reason for their appeal on the bus I'd say. So yes if your adding 3 dB at 10khz then you are driving that frequency hotter into the output of the EQ and hotter into whatever else comes after the EQ. then there are other types that have selectable bands even. So you are adding more and more circuity to the signal(which id good analog opinion). I never do buss eq pre compression personally. but Im certainly not using Eq for makeup gain. I don't think you quite understood what I said.
My buss EQs are PASSIVE*. They have no gain - in fact they have about a 14 dB insertion loss at the flat setting. therefore they REQUIRE makeup gain from an external preamp in order to get back to line level. They aren't driving anything hotter.
When a band is set to "boost" what it actually means is that it's cutting less.
The EQs use toroidal inductors that are approximately the size of an average New England cake doughnut, two per band. They're BIG, heavy air core inductors and the odds of them saturating at any sort of line level are nil. They also generate NO noise (except the thermal background) and no significant distortion.
You can ask Bob O about these EQs - they're the same ones that the famous Motown mastering EQs were based on.
* - and by "passive" I mean PASSIVE. No internal make-up amp. Nary a tube or transistor to be found in there. No power cord. None of this modern crap about calling something with a passive EQ circuit into a gain stage "passive" because such a device really isn't passive strictly speaking, there's gain in the box so it ain't passive.
My EQs are passive. They require external makeup gain.
cool. Your unique and special. There. Did you get your daily dose of "im better than everyone on the internet" lol the way you "share" your information is hilarious to me on this forum. You constant pick a fight with people and then finally explain something useful in a degrading way to everyone as if we all know what your setup is and as if your an engineer blessed with technique's from god himself. Get over yourself man. If you want to contribute, just say how you do it to fit you. You don't need to be a grumpy old man keyboard warrior all the time about it haha I found that info mostly cool. But your delivery is...well asshole is how I'd label it haha While my buss eq is a passive design as well but it does have a makeup gain stage in it. Which again, is pretty common tools that most people have. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 1, 2019 0:31:57 GMT -6
Wiz matched ? I don’t understand your question ? The wa273eq inserts are post it’s pres so line signal just hits eq and output transformers but you have a control for that with led metre.
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 1, 2019 0:32:38 GMT -6
Wiz matched ? I don’t understand your question ? The wa273eq inserts are post it’s pres so line signal just hits eq and output transformers but you have a control for that with led metre. I believe he is asking how the units match to one another. Like how well do they stereo match. |
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Post by wiz on Nov 1, 2019 0:41:58 GMT -6
Wiz matched ? I don’t understand your question ? The wa273eq inserts are post it’s pres so line signal just hits eq and output transformers but you have a control for that with led metre. I believe he is asking how the units match to one another. Like how well do they stereo match. Yep |
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Post by wiz on Nov 1, 2019 0:42:22 GMT -6
I have been re evaluating every step of my process after deciding to throw out a years worth of work on the next album, and start again. I decided as I have no time pressure, to just go back to the beginning and try and get the best process/sound... rather than the preconceived notions I have built up over the last 7 or so albums.... Its been really a breathe of fresh air. So I tried EQing the 2 buss first to see how it works out... its interesting. Someone mentioned the "Glueing" effect of 2 buss compression, YES thats exactly what I thought!!! Bob Olhsson would love you to chime in with your thoughts Cheers Wiz It’s ultimately the source. EVERY TIME. You sounded amazing to me the first couple of times I heard you - I didn’t really care about how well it was recorded. Keep doing what you’re doing. Thank you John |
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 1, 2019 4:33:07 GMT -6
Oh thx , other than when I had screwed up my patchbay wiring, I am not aware of any balance problems between the 2 units.
Wiz and I both use Sound craft boards and logic, so I have the utility i/o on the 2 buss, sending the L/R signals out on 15/16, to AS 1/2, to wa273eq inserts back to soundcraft 15/16 all patched, we also use the same patchbays, I think.
I have to set the two faders a little different for balance but I think that is the board channels as the output Signal on my symphony meters is balanced .
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