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Post by EmRR on Oct 24, 2019 10:03:44 GMT -6
You sound like you're not actually a fan of music. A song is a song, the rest is a package. I guess we wont agree on this one. I think production value means just as much as the writing and performance. Always have and always will. Otherwise the alternative is that everyone just records their music through their cell phone mic and studios/gear/engineers with knowledge have zero meaning because a song is a song and the package is meaningless, right? I don't see it as being that black and white. It's not that it doesn't matter, I'm just knee-jerking about the idea of NOT listening to existing songs because the production value doesn't meet sensibilities. It excludes a ton of great existing music. It SOUNDS like saying you won't watch black and white movies because they aren't 4K color with surround sound.
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Post by svart on Oct 24, 2019 10:50:18 GMT -6
I guess we wont agree on this one. I think production value means just as much as the writing and performance. Always have and always will. Otherwise the alternative is that everyone just records their music through their cell phone mic and studios/gear/engineers with knowledge have zero meaning because a song is a song and the package is meaningless, right? I don't see it as being that black and white. It's not that it doesn't matter, I'm just knee-jerking about the idea of NOT listening to existing songs because the production value doesn't meet sensibilities. It excludes a ton of great existing music. It SOUNDS like saying you won't watch black and white movies because they aren't 4K color with surround sound. Funny you should say that.. I don't like black and white movies as a general rule. For the most part they're mired down by the tropes and styles of their time, which don't speak to me in the least, but I also don't like a lot of their stylistic choices that were popular back in their day either.
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Post by Guitar on Oct 24, 2019 18:48:32 GMT -6
I'm glad to see some heated discussion.
One of my trips lately is wanting things to sound "natural." As in they could be believably played in real time by a human being.
When that's not there, a lot of the joy is gone for me.
For example, 100% locked down gridded drums with no swing or vibe, just a drum machine blast, only "technically" played by a real player. Might as well have been MIDI and samples. Like the new Korn record, terrible.
Autotune. Might as well not be a real singer. Just use the bot things. The computer voice software that's out there now.
I'm not into it AT ALL. And I'm not that old yet either. If it sounds "inhuman" I am out. Unless it's fucked up and twisted intentionally like an AFX record or something. That is absolutely a different animal. Programmed music gets a bit of a pass on gridding. Aphex Twin does a lot of out of pitch microtuning stuff though, to the point, to make it sound more humanized and beautiful. Lots of effort is made to things sound alien and terrifying. Programming can enhance that. Modern EDM is just as bad as modern country and pop/rock.
I just got finished listening to Ornette Coleman's "The Shape Of Jazz To Come" and this is the perfect example of "natural" music to mention for this post. All the notes are out of tune, the rhythm is all over the place. But that's part of why it sounds so good!
I like well-done production as much as anybody else. Like Radiohead's last album. It's obviously super loud and gridded in many places but there was effort to make it sound "natural" to the point where it's not penicillin for the ears like a lot of stuff on top 40. It's all about the creativity and intent behind the sounds and methods. Not "bad tools."
Going to the "extremes" is dangerous in this discussion since there is so much fine line stuff and grey area.
There is some really frickin terrible music being made right now. I don't want to be part of what I see as the problem. I don't think music should be safe and sanitized, sterilized, neutered, pasteurized and freeze dried. Which is how I read the original post of this thread.
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 24, 2019 20:20:39 GMT -6
But I can ask my question different, does it makes sense when all mixes have the exact same asthetic? That's where I don't understand young representatives. It's uniformed products in the end. No, it doesn't. It's the very definition of terminal stupidity as far a mixing audio is conserned.
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 24, 2019 20:33:59 GMT -6
I have to question not liking a song because the amount of polish does not meet one's standards. Why? A song is a sum of the parts. Some of the parts are the writing and performance, and some of the parts are the production and "polish". Why wouldn't someone want a song where they like the writing, also have production values that they like as well? I'm not going to listen to a song where the production sounds like garbage, even if the melody and lyrics are good. The production and so-called "polish" shopuld NOT uverwhelm the song and transform it into the "modern" (in other words bad taste) version of elevator music.
I'm sorry, but some people allow their financial onterests overwhelm artistic qualiy
Who the hell is going to listen to the typical crap on the curren t excuse for the "top 40" (BOUGHT 40) in 20 years?
It sure as hell ain't like when I was young and anything had a chance as long as actual, real PEOPLE liked it.
Back then there was payole, sure. But no amount of payola back then could make a record a hit if it wasn't.
These days it's the exact opposite. The only thing that matters is a-hole "focus groups". Who may in fact not even be composed of humans. Or even Klingons. They're f-ing BORG!
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Post by geoff738 on Oct 24, 2019 20:45:35 GMT -6
I like the Faces.
Cheers, Geoff
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Post by christopher on Oct 24, 2019 22:43:46 GMT -6
I recommend the Tune In app (although they updated it and I’m not sure if it’s still the same?). It’s great because all the radio stations and podcasts are on there.. . Also the Prime music app if you or significant other do amazon. Both apps have preset “channels” or playlists for all the genres and that’s where they will play stuff that isn’t always 100% cookie cutter. I’m really GREATLY enjoying it instead of local radio stations. I can listen to stations out of range, or dial in a playlist of new releases in different genres, or podcasts of whatever. Then hear a new artist, can stream them on prime and see if it’s actually good or total fakes.
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Post by sean on Oct 25, 2019 7:48:04 GMT -6
I like the Faces. Cheers, Geoff The Faces > The Stones
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Post by svart on Oct 25, 2019 8:57:36 GMT -6
I can appreciate modern mixes and arrangement but it’s really about the songs. Sure, Bee Thousand by Guided By Voices sounds like shit and is out of tune and there are wrong chords played, but the songs are great. Improved production on later records definitely didn’t save them from being not as great songs Hmm. I just found these songs and listened out of curiosity. I really don't know how you guys can enjoy that. I found it to be un-listenable in both production and song writing. I guess humans will always have a giant span of likes and dislikes that occasionally overlap.
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Post by christopher on Oct 25, 2019 11:21:55 GMT -6
Ummm.....read that in the context of what he said, as a blanket statement. I don't see how if he believes what he's saying that he can listen to classical music with dynamics. I do, but I do wish that there weren't passages that you can barely hear one minute and another minute have a passage that is ear splitting loud because you turned it up to try to hear the prior passage. This is a topic similar to what my father asked me once: "how is that old movies you can hear every word, but modern movies you are always using the remote to turn it up and down?" Well I started paying close attention and he was right, the old stuff everything is much thicker, denser, and easier to hear because of it. Classical too.
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Post by christopher on Oct 25, 2019 11:30:37 GMT -6
That guided by voices track in interesting and shouldn't be tolerable, but it can be learned to be enjoyed.. thanks to a smooth distortion that is mostly physically pain free. Whereas today everything seems to contain at least some part ear splitting pain we need to carefully watch for and manage like a hawk. Its easier for people to do the LEGO production than make a sound that is natural+loud+not a razor blade on the ear drum. You don't have to deal with those variable micro spikes in the top end if you grid everything, you can dial in the kick and its the same every hit. And then compress vocals to the max to make them consistent. Its like steamrolling the production, not easy, I'm not very good at making art that way, still its a skill...
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Post by svart on Oct 25, 2019 11:52:21 GMT -6
I do, but I do wish that there weren't passages that you can barely hear one minute and another minute have a passage that is ear splitting loud because you turned it up to try to hear the prior passage. This is a topic similar to what my father asked me once: "how is that old movies you can hear every word, but modern movies you are always using the remote to turn it up and down?" Well I started paying close attention and he was right, the old stuff everything is much thicker, denser, and easier to hear because of it. Classical too. I was talking about the classical.. Modern mix methods reduce the dynamic range so greatly that you never have to use the volume.. Old movies and such typically don't have much in the way of deep bass and extended treble. They focus mainly on the midrange around the voice, so it's easier to hear because the frequency range is much more limited.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 25, 2019 12:03:02 GMT -6
That guided by voices track in interesting and shouldn't be tolerable, but it can be learned to be enjoyed.. thanks to a smooth distortion that is mostly physically pain free. Whereas today everything seems to contain at least some part ear splitting pain we need to carefully watch for and manage like a hawk. Its easier for people to do the LEGO production than make a sound that is natural+loud+not a razor blade on the ear drum. You don't have to deal with those variable micro spikes in the top end if you grid everything, you can dial in the kick and its the same every hit. And then compress vocals to the max to make them consistent. Its like steamrolling the production, not easy, I'm not very good at making art that way, still its a skill... You gotta remember they were making records as an unfunded band in the 80's, with many being cassette 4 track mixed to DAT. Two prolific writers living in a place and doing a style that would never get label support then. They created anyway. The Bee Thousand record is mainly a masterpiece of editing, small most interesting pieces of longer songs cut together in a more interesting channel surfing voyage. After that record made them famous and they could actually tour, their shows up through the early 2000's were epic rock-fests. I caught a few that were Zeppelin level endurance 3.5 hour romps with no slow parts, 40 plus songs. Real master class stuff. Ric Ocasek produced at least one record in that era. It's not as good.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 25, 2019 12:04:07 GMT -6
This is a topic similar to what my father asked me once: "how is that old movies you can hear every word, but modern movies you are always using the remote to turn it up and down?" Well I started paying close attention and he was right, the old stuff everything is much thicker, denser, and easier to hear because of it. Classical too. Old movies and such typically don't have much in the way of deep bass and extended treble. They focus mainly on the midrange around the voice, so it's easier to hear because the frequency range is much more limited. Yep. When it's all 200-4K it's all so much more audible on every system.
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Post by Guitar on Oct 25, 2019 13:19:23 GMT -6
That guided by voices track in interesting and shouldn't be tolerable, but it can be learned to be enjoyed.. thanks to a smooth distortion that is mostly physically pain free. Whereas today everything seems to contain at least some part ear splitting pain we need to carefully watch for and manage like a hawk. Its easier for people to do the LEGO production than make a sound that is natural+loud+not a razor blade on the ear drum. You don't have to deal with those variable micro spikes in the top end if you grid everything, you can dial in the kick and its the same every hit. And then compress vocals to the max to make them consistent. Its like steamrolling the production, not easy, I'm not very good at making art that way, still its a skill... You gotta remember they were making records as an unfunded band in the 80's, with many being cassette 4 track mixed to DAT. Two prolific writers living in a place and doing a style that would never get label support then. They created anyway. The Bee Thousand record is mainly a masterpiece of editing, small most interesting pieces of longer songs cut together in a more interesting channel surfing voyage. After that record made them famous and they could actually tour, their shows up through the early 2000's were epic rock-fests. I caught a few that were Zeppelin level endurance 3.5 hour romps with no slow parts, 40 plus songs. Real master class stuff. Ric Ocasek produced at least one record in that era. It's not as good. I saw them live about 2 or 3 years ago. They still do that! A relentless barage of rock, really good show. I think Robert Pollard has more endurance than I do!
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Post by sean on Oct 25, 2019 16:34:43 GMT -6
I can appreciate modern mixes and arrangement but it’s really about the songs. Sure, Bee Thousand by Guided By Voices sounds like shit and is out of tune and there are wrong chords played, but the songs are great. Improved production on later records definitely didn’t save them from being not as great songs Hmm. I just found these songs and listened out of curiosity. I really don't know how you guys can enjoy that. I found it to be un-listenable in both production and song writing. I guess humans will always have a giant span of likes and dislikes that occasionally overlap. When I was in college I took a critical listening class and my professor loves Steely Dan and always had us listening to Aja and some solo Donald Fagan track as like the high water mark of engineering. While I get that the musicianship is excellent and recording is extremely well done it just doesn’t “do it” for me. Needless to say he didn’t much care much for the example I brought in of recordings I liked. Except “All Mod Cons” by The Jam...he thought those drums sounded good too haha! You might like this Guided By Voices recording better. Engineered by Schnapf, produced by Ric Ocasek
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 25, 2019 22:01:00 GMT -6
For example if someone would polish a Clapton record that way I would ask myself if he or she lost their mind. Maybe then Clapton should be listenable.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2019 23:15:18 GMT -6
I like this kind of discussion with really different point of views about music that seems to be uniformed when played in the radio.... Well, I actually did not listen to radio for the last 3 decades. I stopped when private stations decided to speak into the songs and play jingles into them and commercials doing horrible things and so on and so on. (Yes, I suddenly was a fan of public service broadcasters, but they did not play the music I liked...) It is horrible enough that I am forced to listen to the top 20 while grocery shopping and similar occasions... But I actually find some modern stuff really well produced and polished the way I like it. And some of it really has commercial success... The Top Ten, though, is most of the time unlistenable for me... Oh, and I am a fan of "loud" music, and I don't want to hear natural sounds just for the sake of sounding natural. I mean, it is an art, not nature, isn't it? Compression is a part of the art, though. If you don't need it, probably the band already is skilled enough to have excellent sounds they already bring into the production, so you don't need to polish much to make it competitive? Dynamic range just for the sake of having it must not be a good thing. I hate the dynamic range of modern cinema. Yes, I hate it, it is much too high... Usage of exciters and such, ok, this can be overdone very easily. But I get the "bright is the new loud" thing in modern sound, though. Vocal processing - wow. This can get really really awful nowadays. I hate every single "autotune for an effect" moment. Or autotune harmonized robotized choirs... The charts music is so bad in regards to handling of vocals, that I always depressed when I see talent shows like "The Voice" and similar... Where you can actually hear some young singers imitating compression artifacts with their voices, and it sounds unbelievably awful, it is ridiculous and depressing, I can't decide if I should laugh or cry about it, it is absurd... Of course, different genres and different bands do seem to have different production values still, there is quite some diversity, but the more you get to those who actually earn money and climb up the ladder into the charts, this diversity get's lost more and more. Oh, well, and good songwriting becomes a lost art. I sometimes hear a young "singer/songwriter" who writes unbelievably long songs with complex structures of accord progression, and he is very proud of it. He actually studied composition. He seemed to be pretty pissed off, when I told him that his songs are much too long and complex, like I kicked him into his crown jewels... OTOH, some think ABABABCAB with absolute identical As and Bs is a good song scheme for modern music. I don't. I wish sometimes, the younger generation would have had the chance to hear a lot of 60's singles, like I had the opportunity when I was a young kid and my dad showed my how to operate the record player ... most probably things were a lot different now, esp. regarding songwriting/composition. After Hip Hop and Techno hit the ground, and then the charts, a lot of intuitive songwriting skills have been destroyed in the generations thereafter, who listened to nothing else than the radio... But generally - I like modern productions in regards to the extended bandwidth, "fairly moderate" compression, polished sounds. There is always this good music out there, but it is most probably not hitting the charts...
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Post by mrholmes on Oct 25, 2019 23:55:36 GMT -6
For example if someone would polish a Clapton record that way I would ask myself if he or she lost their mind. Maybe then Clapton should be listenable. To my ear ECs production stile is exactly what his arrangements need, and I doubt that polishing it to death is what it needs... EC knows the ones who take care for his asthetic it works and he sold millions of records.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 26, 2019 5:16:59 GMT -6
Maybe then Clapton should be listenable. To my ear ECs production stile is exactly what his arrangements need, and I doubt that polishing it to death is what it needs... EC knows the ones who take care for his asthetic it works and he sold millions of records. I'll take Lizzo over Clapton's soul sucking music 10 times out of 10. 😂😂
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Post by jeremygillespie on Oct 26, 2019 6:29:29 GMT -6
To my ear ECs production stile is exactly what his arrangements need, and I doubt that polishing it to death is what it needs... EC knows the ones who take care for his asthetic it works and he sold millions of records. I'll take Lizzo over Clapton's soul sucking music 10 times out of 10. 😂😂 I like both! I think it just comes down to personal / production style. I generally don’t dig super slick records, but love Steely Dan. I’m usually in the minority on this one... but I wish all those blue note records were recorded by somebody other than Rudy Van Gelder. Man those records have some of the best music ever, but they sound HORRIBLE to me. If you’ve actually seen classical music in the proper settings, the dynamic range is giant, and pretty inspiring. I enjoy that it is represented like that in a well made recording. 🤷🏻♂️ And no I don’t really have a point, just rambling over my cup of coffee this morning.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 26, 2019 7:59:03 GMT -6
I’m usually in the minority on this one... but I wish all those blue note records were recorded by somebody other than Rudy Van Gelder. Man those records have some of the best music ever, but they sound HORRIBLE to me. If you’ve actually seen classical music in the proper settings, the dynamic range is giant, and pretty inspiring. I enjoy that it is represented like that in a well made recording. 🤷🏻♂️ One should really have a stereo system and listening environment that can attempt to recreate classical dynamic range, but it's not practical or realistic for most people. Then you have the audiophile camp who only live in that listening world and are outraged by flat dynamic modern music. I see both sides, and shoot for the middle. The Blue Note stuff is interesting, sometimes it sounds great to me, sometimes not. It's almost mood based.
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Post by lpedrum on Oct 26, 2019 8:47:54 GMT -6
I'll take Lizzo over Clapton's soul sucking music 10 times out of 10. 😂😂 I like both! I think it just comes down to personal / production style. I generally don’t dig super slick records, but love Steely Dan. I’m usually in the minority on this one... but I wish all those blue note records were recorded by somebody other than Rudy Van Gelder. Man those records have some of the best music ever, but they sound HORRIBLE to me. If you’ve actually seen classical music in the proper settings, the dynamic range is giant, and pretty inspiring. I enjoy that it is represented like that in a well made recording. 🤷🏻♂️ And no I don’t really have a point, just rambling over my cup of coffee this morning. YIKES! If I may make a suggestion-next time you hear a Blue Note record focus on the ride cymbal and how it’s so beautifully recorded. Like the pyramids how he did it is still a mystery today. That one thing alone made Van Gelder an engineering master.
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Post by Guitar on Oct 26, 2019 14:26:05 GMT -6
I love the Rudy Van Gelder Blue Note stuff. To me it was a revelation, my true birth into being a jazz listener. I got the 75 disc collection and started there. I think the sound is pretty remarkable, but what do I know.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Oct 26, 2019 15:10:46 GMT -6
I hear the piano in those recordings and go. ...ugh
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