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Post by johneppstein on Oct 23, 2019 17:11:31 GMT -6
There does seem to be a sameness to alot of current mixes. I agree about the over-polished recordings. I think it's the slightly "off" things that build the tension in music, and isn't that a key element in any great song? Perfect has become the standard, yet perfect certainly isn't perfect. Once all the humanness is removed the songs become less compelling and are emotionally flat. Pop mixes are guilty of it, but I hear an awful lot of that from current country as well. I think I would like to get involved in a project where everyone played at the same time and whatever came out is what gets pressed. I've never worked that way but it might be really refreshing. The master rug weavers in Persia say that god abhors perfection, and always deliberately incorporate at least one tiny flaw in every rug. It's how you can tell a real hand woven Persian rug from a factory produced fake.
I agree with the master weavers.
BTW the current commercial "country" music is about as "country" as the Empire State Building.
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 23, 2019 17:15:26 GMT -6
Remember the "if it's too loud, you're too old"? Seems the "it's too polished" and "it's too compressed" is just following the cyclical nature of loving music the way you grew up with it and hating music the way the next generation loves it. That doesn't make formulaic "elevator music" (maybe not exactly the right term, but you get the idea) good. Universal bad taste is still bad taste. The majority is not always rioght.
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 23, 2019 17:19:01 GMT -6
What I've found is that a lot of the time people work the song and the mix to the end of their skills and then use the excuse "don't want it to sound too polished" as their reasoning to stop going further. I think you're dead on about that. And that's not an indictment against the OP, his point is valid. I think alot of the "sameness" of modern music comes from a certain aesthetic that is over used. Its hard to put into words exactly but in my mind the "modern aesthetic" is a separate thing from "modern production" or the "over polished" sound. Not sure if that makes sense. But somewhere in there, there is a distinction that needs to be made. I think that the major problem is the predominace of certain digital processing effects (awefultune, grid mapping, etc.) that make so-called "perfection" too easy.
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 23, 2019 17:22:54 GMT -6
I think you're dead on about that. And that's not an indictment against the OP, his point is valid. I think alot of the "sameness" of modern music comes from a certain aesthetic that is over used. Its hard to put into words exactly but in my mind the "modern aesthetic" is a separate thing from "modern production" or the "over polished" sound. Not sure if that makes sense. But somewhere in there, there is a distinction that needs to be made. I have gotten a lot of work over the years where folks send me mixes they've had done by others, or have done themselves as demo material. Almost all of them have asked me to critique their work as well. Most of the time it's a case of heading the right direction but stopping short of "polishing". They might wonder why the vocals disappear at certain times and it's because they aren't using enough compression on the guitars that build up and mask it. Or they might wonder why the cymbals sound too thin and it's because they've boosted 12K to the heavens because they didn't add enough compression to make them not poke out in some places and not others, or they didn't LPF the guitars low enough.. And so on. And most of the time when I do tell them what I think, the replies are very similar. "I read on this forum/heard on this youtube video that you shouldn't boost/cut/compress more than xxxx amount." Or "I heard/read that you should always get the tone at the source and never use samples/EQ." and so on. And then the next worse thing is when people mix each instrument in solo and then wonder why the total mix is a muddy mess and everything is fighting.. They can't believe how much filtering goes on to get things to sound "natural" in a dense mix. All this when the ACTUAL problem is that whoever was in charge of the session couldn't arrange their way out of a wet paper bag. And whoever was playing tracking engineer didn't know how to record instruments.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 23, 2019 17:28:21 GMT -6
Oh oh !!
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 23, 2019 17:31:17 GMT -6
I have gotten a lot of work over the years where folks send me mixes they've had done by others, or have done themselves as demo material. Almost all of them have asked me to critique their work as well. Most of the time it's a case of heading the right direction but stopping short of "polishing". They might wonder why the vocals disappear at certain times and it's because they aren't using enough compression on the guitars that build up and mask it. Or they might wonder why the cymbals sound too thin and it's because they've boosted 12K to the heavens because they didn't add enough compression to make them not poke out in some places and not others, or they didn't LPF the guitars low enough.. You can also replace compression with automation..... Or fader moves. People trying to track and mix without a proper console.
Yes, I know that a lot of very experienced people do great mixes that way. Emphasis on "VERY EXPERIENCED". But when you're starting out you need to start with the basics. And I'm sorry, but that means learning to use a console and absorbing that ethic.
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 23, 2019 17:34:58 GMT -6
I did read it context, of the whole thread, thanks. We obviously came to different interpretations, so be it. Really though, a guy says he likes to use modern production techniques and that somehow means he can't like classical music? ok... I guess you skipped the "it's too compressed" comment. I suppose you forget all the other threads in which he's trotted out a similar set of opinions, usually including 'if it's not loud, I don't like it'. If it's not loud USE THE DAMN VOLUME CONTROL!
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Post by wiz on Oct 23, 2019 18:17:43 GMT -6
I was just listening to Back In Black by ACDC the other day... man what a mix that is.....
Contrary to popular modern mixing... Imagine if it was mixed today...
Go back and have a listen to that.... fantastic arrangement of what is very few tracks compared to modern stuff.... also notice how it isn't buss compressed to the sh*thouse....
Beautiful sounding Rock Song...
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Chad on Oct 23, 2019 18:22:08 GMT -6
I think... when it comes to creativity...
Pursuing Excellence and Striving for Perfection are polar opposites.
One is an act of love; the other birthed out of anxiety and fear. (ie fear of failure)
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Post by drbill on Oct 23, 2019 18:45:14 GMT -6
I think... when it comes to creativity... Pursuing Excellence and Striving for Perfection are polar opposites. One is an act of love; the other birthed out of anxiety and fear. (ie fear of failure) That's why we got two sides of our brain Chad.....
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 23, 2019 19:10:31 GMT -6
I was just listening to Back In Black by ACDC the other day... man what a mix that is..... Contrary to popular modern mixing... Imagine if it was mixed today... Go back and have a listen to that.... fantastic arrangement of what is very few tracks compared to modern stuff.... also notice how it isn't buss compressed to the sh*thouse.... Beautiful sounding Rock Song... cheers Wiz Absolutely! Can you imagine what it would sound like if it was mixed by a "modern" mixer? Vocals squashed to wussiness. No dynamics in the mix.
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Post by mrholmes on Oct 24, 2019 1:40:28 GMT -6
I was just listening to Back In Black by ACDC the other day... man what a mix that is..... Contrary to popular modern mixing... Imagine if it was mixed today... Go back and have a listen to that.... fantastic arrangement of what is very few tracks compared to modern stuff.... also notice how it isn't buss compressed to the sh*thouse.... Beautiful sounding Rock Song... cheers Wiz Absolutely! Can you imagine what it would sound like if it was mixed by a "modern" mixer? Vocals squashed to wussiness. No dynamics in the mix. If every little thing gets compression to put it in the right spot, in the end there is limiting on the 2bus .... it start to sound more like a wall than music played by humans. But I can ask my question different, does it makes sense when all mixes have the exact same asthetic? That's where I don't understand young representatives. It's uniformed products in the end.
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Post by svart on Oct 24, 2019 7:58:26 GMT -6
I have to question not liking a song because the amount of polish does not meet one's standards. Why? A song is a sum of the parts. Some of the parts are the writing and performance, and some of the parts are the production and "polish". Why wouldn't someone want a song where they like the writing, also have production values that they like as well? I'm not going to listen to a song where the production sounds like garbage, even if the melody and lyrics are good.
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Post by svart on Oct 24, 2019 8:00:24 GMT -6
I have gotten a lot of work over the years where folks send me mixes they've had done by others, or have done themselves as demo material. Almost all of them have asked me to critique their work as well. Most of the time it's a case of heading the right direction but stopping short of "polishing". They might wonder why the vocals disappear at certain times and it's because they aren't using enough compression on the guitars that build up and mask it. Or they might wonder why the cymbals sound too thin and it's because they've boosted 12K to the heavens because they didn't add enough compression to make them not poke out in some places and not others, or they didn't LPF the guitars low enough.. You can also replace compression with automation..... I chose my words correctly. I think you maybe confuse my intent.. I like the way compression modifies the attacks of the audio I put through it. I use automation for what I need, but compression is a stylistic choice. I don't even think of compression as a level control anymore.
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Post by svart on Oct 24, 2019 8:02:33 GMT -6
Ummm...I'm pretty sure svart is saying that he owns many classical pieces of music...you know, in reference to your comment, "I bet you don't listen to classical". Ummm.....read that in the context of what he said, as a blanket statement. I don't see how if he believes what he's saying that he can listen to classical music with dynamics. I do, but I do wish that there weren't passages that you can barely hear one minute and another minute have a passage that is ear splitting loud because you turned it up to try to hear the prior passage.
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Post by svart on Oct 24, 2019 8:06:10 GMT -6
I suppose you forget all the other threads in which he's trotted out a similar set of opinions, usually including 'if it's not loud, I don't like it'. As opposed to the throngs of threads bashing "compression" from a few who feel it necessary to stop by and say "it's too compressed, I don't like it"? I'm certainly the minority around here in my likes/dislikes, but an open thread that begs discussion about modern mixes, why wouldn't I speak my mind about something I like? Should I just let the bashers have their fun and not have any of my own?
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Post by EmRR on Oct 24, 2019 8:47:08 GMT -6
I have to question not liking a song because the amount of polish does not meet one's standards. Why? A song is a sum of the parts. Some of the parts are the writing and performance, and some of the parts are the production and "polish". Why wouldn't someone want a song where they like the writing, also have production values that they like as well? I'm not going to listen to a song where the production sounds like garbage, even if the melody and lyrics are good. You sound like you're not actually a fan of music. A song is a song, the rest is a package.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 24, 2019 8:48:00 GMT -6
You can also replace compression with automation..... I chose my words correctly. I think you maybe confuse my intent.. I like the way compression modifies the attacks of the audio I put through it. I use automation for what I need, but compression is a stylistic choice. I don't even think of compression as a level control anymore. Two different ways to do it, two choices. I use both as needed. You probably do too.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 24, 2019 8:50:21 GMT -6
I suppose you forget all the other threads in which he's trotted out a similar set of opinions, usually including 'if it's not loud, I don't like it'. As opposed to the throngs of threads bashing "compression" from a few who feel it necessary to stop by and say "it's too compressed, I don't like it"? I'm certainly the minority around here in my likes/dislikes, but an open thread that begs discussion about modern mixes, why wouldn't I speak my mind about something I like? Should I just let the bashers have their fun and not have any of my own? I'm not bashing compression, and hopefully it doesn't sound like it. I suppose I object to your tone suggesting it's the 'modern way', when clearly that's just ONE way amongst many. You choose not to use the others, and don't like them, fine.
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Post by svart on Oct 24, 2019 9:04:58 GMT -6
As opposed to the throngs of threads bashing "compression" from a few who feel it necessary to stop by and say "it's too compressed, I don't like it"? I'm certainly the minority around here in my likes/dislikes, but an open thread that begs discussion about modern mixes, why wouldn't I speak my mind about something I like? Should I just let the bashers have their fun and not have any of my own? I'm not bashing compression, and hopefully it doesn't sound like it. I suppose I object to your tone suggesting it's the 'modern way', when clearly that's just ONE way amongst many. You choose not to use the others, and don't like them, fine. Sorry, I did take it as you were but I suppose it's just me having a knee-jerk reaction and I apologize. You're right, it's only one way among many, and my opinion only meant to be an example of there are those of us who actually *like* the way modern production sounds but have become a bit jaded at the "no, you're wrong if you like this" tone that seems to permeate these discussions on the internet. It gets a bit old being told that the thing you like is wrong, so defense mechanisms take hold.
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Post by svart on Oct 24, 2019 9:07:59 GMT -6
Why? A song is a sum of the parts. Some of the parts are the writing and performance, and some of the parts are the production and "polish". Why wouldn't someone want a song where they like the writing, also have production values that they like as well? I'm not going to listen to a song where the production sounds like garbage, even if the melody and lyrics are good. You sound like you're not actually a fan of music. A song is a song, the rest is a package. I guess we wont agree on this one. I think production value means just as much as the writing and performance. Always have and always will. Otherwise the alternative is that everyone just records their music through their cell phone mic and studios/gear/engineers with knowledge have zero meaning because a song is a song and the package is meaningless, right?
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Post by 000 on Oct 24, 2019 9:32:48 GMT -6
You sound like you're not actually a fan of music. A song is a song, the rest is a package. I guess we wont agree on this one. I think production value means just as much as the writing and performance. Always have and always will. Otherwise the alternative is that everyone just records their music through their cell phone mic and studios/gear/engineers with knowledge have zero meaning because a song is a song and the package is meaningless, right? I think the production aesthetic of a song is extremely important in presenting the artists work in a cohesive way. It’s not whether one way is empirically right or wrong - but whether one way is right or wrong for the particular song. It’s all about the overall impact of the production on the listener - and the best stuff is a complete package of performance, arrangement, and production that compliment each other.
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Post by drbill on Oct 24, 2019 9:43:30 GMT -6
re: the original question - comment.....
I try to find a little bit of beauty, a little bit of production technique, a little bit of arranging craft in everything. There's USUALLY something there for the taking.
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Post by sean on Oct 24, 2019 9:48:55 GMT -6
I can appreciate modern mixes and arrangement but it’s really about the songs.
Sure, Bee Thousand by Guided By Voices sounds like shit and is out of tune and there are wrong chords played, but the songs are great. Improved production on later records definitely didn’t save them from being not as great songs
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Post by EmRR on Oct 24, 2019 9:59:44 GMT -6
I can appreciate modern mixes and arrangement but it’s really about the songs. Sure, Bee Thousand by Guided By Voices sounds like shit and is out of tune and there are wrong chords played, but the songs are great. Improved production on later records definitely didn’t save them from being not as great songs Bingo. Maybe the best example.
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