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Post by stormymondays on Oct 2, 2019 7:40:56 GMT -6
I'm wondering whether I should sell some of my preamps and get multiples of the same pre. This has been brought up a few times in threads about studio consoles. It used to be that a studio would have a desk and those were the preamps you would have. Maybe a special outboard unit or two. I think that helps with workflow (limiting choices) and it might also help with sonics.
Over the years I've collected a few styles of preamps: a pair of Warm Audio TB (upgraded with LTL Rogue 5 Op Amps), which are cool. A Golden Age Pre73 MkIII, upgraded with Carnhill transformers and with the extra EQ half rack, cool too. A pair of LTL Chromas, very useful. A quartet of DAV Broadhurst Gardens, they never disappoint. And a Tree Audio The Branch II, which is just awesome.
However, because I like to "maximize" the capture, I think I spend too much time testing the several Neve/API/clean/Tube flavors, and then there are a few mics that I want to try, etc.
Maybe I should eliminate some of the variables and get another four channels of DAV. The Manley Force looks like a very good idea too.
Any thoughts?
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Post by matt@IAA on Oct 2, 2019 8:02:02 GMT -6
I think it really depends on what you're recording and why. I like to have at least eight channels of a preamp in order to track a drum kit. At that point it's not just about the individual preamp but also how they stack. I also like doing four tracks per guitar take (two mics on two amps) so I prefer to use four of the same preamp for that, but sometimes two and two. Vocals, overdubbed percussion, I think you can kinda do whatever you want.
Honestly though I think more is made of preamps than is necessary. I don't think anyone on here can listen to a final product recording from yesteryear and accurately say what console it was recorded on. I remember an article talking to the engineer that did the remixing of the guitar hero songs from original tape where he said he was very surprised that sometimes the console sound he thought he needed wasn't a necessary part of the sound at all.
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Post by stormymondays on Oct 2, 2019 8:14:31 GMT -6
That's exactly my thinking. I track drum kits frequently (and full bands too) and I'm not too fond of mix-and-match preamps for that, though API-style on kick and snare is usually hard to beat. Even though the DAV is very affordable (and it's not transformer based) it really sounds great with almost anything. I could use four more of those. Then there are I/O considerations, selling off some of my pres... Not an easy decision.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2019 8:34:29 GMT -6
Been thinking about this myself lately. Having had the experience a few times, I would rather record through a good console or a collection of mostly the same preamps than have 2 of this, 2 of that... There used to be a studio near me with a Sphere desk. Holy moly. And I got to use a Neve desk once. Felt like I won something. In those instances, I got to where I needed to go MUCH faster, and I think the end result was more cohesive. That included making EQ choices and all that. If you have 16 of the same EQ, you don't even think about what another would sound like on the snare drum or whatever. I freelance in a spot now that has pairs of several types. All real good stuff (Neve, Chandler, API, UA, etc.), but I certainly waste time planning on what to use where and do the "well, I used the neve on the snare last time, so let's try the Chandler this time (even though the Neve sounded great)." Can't complain much, because I'm getting great results, but indecisiveness can get a grip on me sometimes. I say all this as someone who has like 4 or 5 different kinds of preamps. I think I've figured out which one I want a lot of though, so that's good. If money were no object, I'd just buy a Daking console and have a few Hamptones on hand and be done with it.
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Post by svart on Oct 2, 2019 9:03:42 GMT -6
Years ago I probably had 20 different style preamps. Now I have 4 different styles, each with multiples of the same preamp. The forums are filled with one-off A/B comparisons, but nobody ever listens to music that way, and nobody has every said "damn, that hi-hat wasn't tracked through a 1073, so I can't listen to this song".. Once you get a mix together, what preamp was used is moot. It might make a great difference when solo'd and compared directly, but in the mix the differences are greatly diminished.
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 2, 2019 9:37:29 GMT -6
I definitely prefer to have mostly the same preamps available for a session, if for no other reason than I don't want to be distracted with too many choices. I've narrowed down my personal collection to 4 vp28's, 2 AML1073's, 4 channels of Sebatron tube pre's, and my LA610. So that leaves me with API/NEVE flavor, and some tube pre's. I feel I have all my basis covered and I really don't lust after any other pre's anymore. Although...I've been toying with the idea of selling the sebatron for a 2 channel tube pre like the Thermionic Culture Rooster. Mostly because I don't need 4 channels of it and I really like pre's that have separate line inputs (for hybrid workflow reasons).
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Post by Vincent R. on Oct 2, 2019 12:48:52 GMT -6
It's not a bad question, but I have my own thoughts as well. I've owned a bunch of different tube preamps, from cheap DBX386 and Art Pro to nice general use pieces like the Demeter VTMP, and the more sonically specific Tab V78M. Then I've had SS budget stuff like Slate VMS 1, Dbx 286, Warm WA12, SSL Alpha Channel, and now a dual channel Dan Alexander 1272 with original Neve transformers. What I've discovered for my own tastes is I like tube microphones through transformer based preamps like the my Dan Alexander or the WA12 and SS mics through tube preamps like my Demeter and V78M. I really lean toward the Neve sound. I'd love to have a rig with 8 Neve style preamps and 4-8 tube preamps, with maybe a few stragglers like some cleaner SSL premaps, which I actually like. I'm sort of emulating that set up now using my Apollo's Unison preamps; Neve, SSL, 610, V76. That said, I've been itching to get a Chandler TG2 in here to play around with. lol.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 2, 2019 13:27:40 GMT -6
I don’t find it critical. Use what you want, where you want, when you want, for whatever reason. If it turns out wrong (doubtful) try something different over and over till you find what you like. Using all the same sounds a bit like arguing for using 8 of the same mic on a drum kit to me. You can do it, sure. I’ll change preamps based on genre the same as you would mics based on genre. I’ll use 2 radically different mics on a guitar amp and two radically different preamps that match those mics best. Etc. Nothing against using all the same preamps either, happens frequently on live remotes.
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Post by chessparov on Oct 2, 2019 13:28:49 GMT -6
That's the Spirit! In the cheap seats, I'm tempted to either an Alctron MP100 (UA 710 clone) or the new Soyuz Launcher. XMAS gift to myself. Really like your U87ai through Demeter BTW Vincent. Chris
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Post by Vincent R. on Oct 2, 2019 14:00:05 GMT -6
That's the Spirit! In the cheap seats, I'm tempted to either an Alctron MP100 (UA 710 clone) or the new Soyuz Launcher. XMAS gift to myself. Really like your U87ai through Demeter BTW Vincent. Chris Yeah, the U87ai through the Demeter is fantastic, as is the BLUE Kiwi with the Demeter. First time I used the Demeter was with the Kiwi and that chain just worked on all the vocalists we had that day.
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Post by Cyrus Melchor on Oct 2, 2019 14:22:28 GMT -6
I vote for a whole gang of one! If recordings are time capsules, you'll always have that particular era properly fingerprinted when you've got only one characteristic preamp sound. With a mishmash there's nothing identifiable. But that's me and my romantic stylings.
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Post by lpedrum on Oct 2, 2019 14:29:04 GMT -6
If your work flow is really getting bogged down by too many pre choices maybe it's time to consolidate things. If you're asking if the final mix will have more cohesion if recorded through a console or one pre my guess is that would be hard to prove. I love using different pres but I certainly don't get dogmatic about it, and feel more and more that mic choice makes a bigger impact when tracking.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2019 15:01:37 GMT -6
I vote for a whole gang of one! If recordings are time capsules, you'll always have that particular era properly fingerprinted when you've got only one characteristic preamp sound. With a mishmash there's nothing identifiable. But that's me and my romantic stylings. I think there is something to that. Not necessarily a hard and fast rule I suppose though. What I notice about the few recordings I did with all the same preamp/EQ for tracking, they have more of a vibe and cohesion about them out of the gate, rather than every other thing I've done where I've found myself chasing those qualities with varying degrees of success.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 2, 2019 15:44:17 GMT -6
If recordings are time capsules, you'll always have that particular era properly fingerprinted when you've got only one characteristic preamp sound. You could build that thought out to suggest we are now fingerprinting everything to sound like the 1970's with all this API or Neve type stuff. And if the modern ultra clean really has no sound, then fingerprinting it as being from a black hole where there is no time. Or the home recordist with an all-in-one interface.....never mind. Just a thought. Seriously, I can track with all 1940's preamps and it doesn't sound like the 1940's. Many say it sounds modern....it's the musician style/technique, the mics, the placement, the room, etc etc etc. Every condenser mic has a preamp in it....that feeds another preamp....that goes back to a parallel argument for insisting on all the mics being the same...... Devil's advocate.....it's about how big you want your box of crayons to be.
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Post by Cyrus Melchor on Oct 2, 2019 16:01:20 GMT -6
That's bigger picture than I intended. I was talking more on the personal level. Like the body of work shows early on this artist clearly had a mackie and then the next era had a DIGI001 and then attained some success and suddenly had a full rack of Neves. Or whatever the story is. Just adds another esoteric layer. And to me, that's pretty cool.
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Post by EmRR on Oct 2, 2019 16:05:14 GMT -6
That's bigger picture than I intended. I was talking more on the personal level. Like the body of work shows early on this artist clearly had a mackie and then the next era had a DIGI001 and then attained some success and suddenly had a full rack of Neves. Or whatever the story is. Just adds another esoteric layer. And to me, that's pretty cool. Gotcha. I can add I hear some things I tracked with a pair of RE-16's and a Mackie to a blackface ADAT that sound better than some things I tracked yesterday with a plethora of fancy options. It just never seems that clear a lineage from any distance at all.
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Post by Guitar on Oct 2, 2019 16:28:23 GMT -6
I think maybe drums are the only thing I would really want 8-12 preamps for that are similar enough. Anything else is "fair game."
I sway with the people that think of it as somewhat esoteric to really put a value on.
Even though I love specific preamps and critical listening. It's more for me/us than it is for the listener, when all the work has been done.
A whole lot of words to say "It doesn't matter."
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 2, 2019 22:06:18 GMT -6
Maybe name your top five favorite recordings, and then ask yourself was that a one console album? Every recording I did in a major studio used the boards preamps, no messing with separate ones. No musician or producer I knew complained, ever, about the preamp in a vintage API or Trident 80 series, Neve console or even the SSL 9000.
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Post by subspace on Oct 3, 2019 4:28:49 GMT -6
I like to start with 16 Trident 80 series pre/EQs, then patch in an outboard pre/EQ if I'm looking for something thicker or with better sculpting EQ. I will say for tracks I'll be doubling the board preamps often work better and shooting for the biggest solo sound can be counter productive.
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Post by Vincent R. on Oct 3, 2019 5:26:51 GMT -6
Maybe name your top five favorite recordings, and then ask yourself was that a one console album? Every recording I did in a major studio used the boards preamps, no messing with separate ones. No musician or producer I knew complained, ever, about the preamp in a vintage API or Trident 80 series, Neve console or even the SSL 9000. For me it’s record on a Neve, mix on an SSL.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 3, 2019 7:40:00 GMT -6
I'm sure that's cool and many producers have done that, but when I was a guest at mixes of Brad Paisley, Neo and James Blunt, all tracked and mixed on the SSL 9000, not one producer, engineer or artist said anything about wishing they had another console to mix on. On that same SSL board, Blake Shelton. Velvet Revolver, Sarah McLachlan, Chris Cornell, Taylor Swift, Maroon 5, Carrie Underwood, Alicia Keys, Linkin Park, Pink, and dozens of other superstars were tracked for my friend's show "Stripped Raw and Real", and not one producer or engineer ever had an issue with the sound.
So I'm just sayin', we can get lost in the details and minutia sometimes and meanwhile, great artists are kicking ass with one board.
I haven't ever had the pleasure of tracking on Neve to mix on an SSL though, so I have no personal experience with that, I'm sure it ain't shabby. I might completely agree with Vincent if given the choice, but my point is, if it's good enough for those artists, i'd rather have a board to track a band and not worry about separate preamps.
I did one vocal track on a vintage Neve that sounded great, and I swear, of all the clones I've heard, the Stam SA73 sounded the most like the vintage Neve pre. So, even with my two preamps, I can see the advantage of having a choice between a Neve sound and the Abbey Road sound (on my Dizengoff D4), but if I was tracking a band, I personally would want a board and all the same channel strips.
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Post by Vincent R. on Oct 3, 2019 8:53:40 GMT -6
Yeah I agree with you Martin. I've made some fantastic recordings on an SSL console with the SSL preamps. The 9000 series preamps are particularly good. When I was really starting to build my studio up I found that all of my favorite recent "Broadway" recordings had all been done at the Power Station tracked on the Neve in Studio A and mixed on the SSL in studio B. Once I started approaching my own recordings that way, usually recording through my Dan Alexander and mixing using UAD SSL plugins of my old Alpha Channel, etc, I found that sound I was looking for.
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Post by mrholmes on Oct 3, 2019 8:55:23 GMT -6
Years ago I probably had 20 different style preamps. Now I have 4 different styles, each with multiples of the same preamp. The forums are filled with one-off A/B comparisons, but nobody ever listens to music that way, and nobody has every said "damn, that hi-hat wasn't tracked through a 1073, so I can't listen to this song".. Once you get a mix together, what preamp was used is moot. It might make a great difference when solo'd and compared directly, but in the mix the differences are greatly diminished.
Haven't seen this thread but its some kind of funny because I also think about to narrow down my rig. I made the experience that it's no big deal to use clean preamps instead of vintage ones.
I was often surprised how good IC based preamps sound in the 200 Euro range. it does not brake the song.... and it does makes me think to sell some preamps.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Oct 3, 2019 18:15:43 GMT -6
Did somebody say....preamp?
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Post by dreamsambas on Oct 3, 2019 21:20:46 GMT -6
In my little home studio, I have had lots of different preamps... in the name of having different ‘flavors’.
But after a while I decided it just wasn’t that big of a priority for me. When I listen back to albums I’ve done, what I hear are the performaces. I don’t hear if it was tracked on Great Rivers or my buddy’s Behringer X32...
I’m in the process of downscaling to 8 channels of the same preamp now, and plan to use just that in the future.
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