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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 10:01:11 GMT -6
I purchased a pair of Focal Solo 6's last year. They obviously sound really good, and I'm hearing things in my mixes that were more difficult to hear when I was using my Dynaudio BM5A's (that could also have a lot to do with my new room/treatment though). My mixes are translating quite nicely too. I just am not enjoying listening for any lengthy period of time.
I think they just don't agree with me. I get ear fatigue very quickly. I'm quite sensitive to certain frequency ranges, and I think maybe they are accentuated by these speakers. I don't monitor loud. Actually, I think I compensate for the fatigue and listen too quietly most of the time lately.
My room is very dead. It's small, so I treated it heavily with 703 panels. Maybe too much?
At any rate, are there mellower sounding speakers in a similar price range that are worth looking into? Or cheaper even? I don't have any place near me that would allow me to test anything unfortunately (besides hi-fi stereo shop). I'm kind of pissed at myself for not properly evaluating these things before the return policy expired. Spending that much on something is a massive investment for me.
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Post by Guitar on Sept 19, 2019 13:29:33 GMT -6
I think of my Focals as being pretty mellow on the tops. other people have mentioned this also in various places.
Might be something the mids you don't like. Or the bottom. Maybe you're sitting in a null or a peak. Something besides the speakers in other words.
I'm currently having inner ear allergies and that's making my Aria 906 setup sound SUPER weird but I'm just going to wait for it to pass. Could be a temporary ear thing. It happens once in a while.
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 19, 2019 14:10:08 GMT -6
That tweeter is known for being very precise, maybe try the cigarette paper fix and see ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 14:15:21 GMT -6
I think of my Focals as being pretty mellow on the tops. other people have mentioned this also in various places. Might be something the mids you don't like. Or the bottom. Maybe you're sitting in a null or a peak. Something besides the speakers in other words. I'm currently having inner ear allergies and that's making my Aria 906 setup sound SUPER weird but I'm just going to wait for it to pass. Could be a temporary ear thing. It happens once in a while. Nice to hear from another user that maybe I'm nuts (so far, I'd say it's 50/50). I do think it's weird. I remember when I first bought them, listening to stuff to break them in and feeling like they were the beset damn speakers I've ever heard, but something happened over time. I did have to replace a tweeter at one point, but I can't see how that would make them weird. I will investigate some room config. things. The "ear thing" can be a thing for me as well. I suffer from year round allergies (dust, mold, every damn pollen...), and I have a TMJ disorder that puts a lot of pressure behind my ear drums and can cause some hyper sensitivity/tinnitus, etc... Been working with a massage therapist on that. Been a very slow process, but it seems to be helping.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 14:16:46 GMT -6
That tweeter is known for being very precise, maybe try the cigarette paper fix and see ? It is. It took me a long time to figure how to best place them in relation to my seat height and all that. Big difference with just subtle movements.
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 19, 2019 14:35:53 GMT -6
Sounds like you need to aim them a little more off axis sort of more past your ears and that first reflection point absorption is critical ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 15:18:37 GMT -6
Here's a sketch of my room and where the panels are. Front / rear wall and corners are 4" 703, side walls are 2" 703. There's also a single 2'x4'x4" panel above the speakers and some packing blankets hung in a couple spots. Packing blankets covering the ceiling too. Filled the exposed joists above with regular insulation. IDK if this is relevant. One thing this sloppiness doesn't show is that the speakers are very close to that back wall. It's a small room and I read somewhere that that helps with the low end accuracy in small rooms. Correct me if that's false.
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Post by svart on Sept 19, 2019 16:31:14 GMT -6
I think of my Focals as being pretty mellow on the tops. other people have mentioned this also in various places. Might be something the mids you don't like. Or the bottom. Maybe you're sitting in a null or a peak. Something besides the speakers in other words. I'm currently having inner ear allergies and that's making my Aria 906 setup sound SUPER weird but I'm just going to wait for it to pass. Could be a temporary ear thing. It happens once in a while. Nice to hear from another user that maybe I'm nuts (so far, I'd say it's 50/50). I do think it's weird. I remember when I first bought them, listening to stuff to break them in and feeling like they were the beset damn speakers I've ever heard, but something happened over time. I did have to replace a tweeter at one point, but I can't see how that would make them weird. I will investigate some room config. things. The "ear thing" can be a thing for me as well. I suffer from year round allergies (dust, mold, every damn pollen...), and I have a TMJ disorder that puts a lot of pressure behind my ear drums and can cause some hyper sensitivity/tinnitus, etc... Been working with a massage therapist on that. Been a very slow process, but it seems to be helping. I had an inner ear infection once and ever since, I'm hyper sensitive to mid-range frequencies in my right ear. It's actually working in my favor because if I don't hear the problems I know the mix is good.
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 19, 2019 21:49:46 GMT -6
Theory is great, but if you are unhappy definitely try a different position. Normally, you’d start with them about 1/3 of room length away from front wall ( wall behind the monitors).
Have you ever had them here and used room ew wizard or Sonarworks to measure room ?
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Post by svart on Sept 20, 2019 7:34:21 GMT -6
I'm going to come out and say it, sometimes people just don't get along with certain monitors. There's no amount of work that can be done to fix it, you just gotta find something else that works for you.
I always found my old JBL LSR monitors to be very relaxed and non-fatiguing. I don't know how the newer ones stack up though. I'm also loving my Neumann KH310 monitors, but they need to be further away from my ears to work best, but maybe Neumann's smaller 2ways might be a better choice for you.
One related thing, sometimes monitors don't sound good outside of their sweetspots. Try sitting much further back from your monitors and seeing if you're hearing the same issues. If not, it might simply be a diffraction issue or related to being too close to your ears.
Also, you mentioned replacing the tweeter.. Is it possible that when it got swapped, the leads were installed backwards? I would think it would give an obviously wrong-sounding output, but you never know.
Also also, could it simply be that you're hearing real problems with the mix? I ask because I swear I can listen to NS10's all day long with pro mixes, but sometimes I put my mixes up and it's fatiguing as hell even though I can't really hear the differences on other speakers.. I also say this because I've been through a lot of monitors and sometimes it does take forever to kinda "hear" them for what they are. I took a few weeks off of the studio recently and when I came back I heard all kinds of things I never heard before in a mix I had been working on.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Sept 20, 2019 9:34:56 GMT -6
I have the same issue with ear fatigue and went through half a dozen pairs of monitors before getting PSI’s from zen pro. They completely solved the problem for me. You might be able to find a used pair of a17’s in your price range.
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Post by EmRR on Sept 20, 2019 9:46:53 GMT -6
I always found my old JBL LSR monitors to be very relaxed and non-fatiguing. Same here, and same with the newer 705/8's
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Post by Guitar on Sept 20, 2019 10:21:30 GMT -6
I have MK I LSR305, the really cheap ones, they are so smooth and comfortable, kind of a revelation coming from hot tweeter boxes. My plan is to continue using them for travel gigs since they are so easy to move and set up.
The Focal (Aria 906) do the same thing though, and sound a lot better "in general." but they still don't have that insane sweet spot of the JBL waveguide speakers. The Aria 906 tend to put a lot of sound right in the middle of the frequency range but it's so well balalced that it works for anything.
The cheap JBL's suffer from cheap-speaker-itis, a little crunchy, weirdness in the mids/lows, funky power amps, but the concept of them is pretty brilliant.
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Post by EmRR on Sept 20, 2019 11:01:16 GMT -6
I have MK I LSR305, the really cheap ones, they are so smooth and comfortable, kind of a revelation coming from hot tweeter boxes. My plan is to continue using them for travel gigs since they are so easy to move and set up. The cheap JBL's suffer from cheap-speaker-itis, a little crunchy, weirdness in the mids/lows, funky power amps, but the concept of them is pretty brilliant. The concept 'LSR' is now muddied, in that the old LSR were more expensive higher grade monitors, now LSR is a budget monitor and the top of the line is branded differently.
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Post by Guitar on Sept 20, 2019 12:11:22 GMT -6
I have MK I LSR305, the really cheap ones, they are so smooth and comfortable, kind of a revelation coming from hot tweeter boxes. My plan is to continue using them for travel gigs since they are so easy to move and set up. The cheap JBL's suffer from cheap-speaker-itis, a little crunchy, weirdness in the mids/lows, funky power amps, but the concept of them is pretty brilliant. The concept 'LSR' is now muddied, in that the old LSR were more expensive higher grade monitors, now LSR is a budget monitor and the top of the line is branded differently. Thanks for pointing that out. I had no idea. Same thing happened to Acoustic guitar and bass amps, as well as Silvertone guitars (arguable.)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 12:21:34 GMT -6
Have Neumann kh 120, never looked back, priced a lot lower than what you have.
I get ear fatigue kinda fast too due to high volume listening abuse in my earlier years.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 8:16:29 GMT -6
I'm going to come out and say it, sometimes people just don't get along with certain monitors. There's no amount of work that can be done to fix it, you just gotta find something else that works for you. I guess I'm hoping this just isn't the case, so I'm investigating other possibilities. It may really be this simple though. I don't have a ton of experience with different types of monitors. Friend of mine has a pair of Neumanns. I should bring some stuff over to listen, or maybe borrow them for a weekend and put them up side by side. Sweetspot is pretty narrow in my space. Like I said, it's very dead, but also narrow itself, so not a lot of wiggle room for placement. Lately I've been experimenting with sitting further away and I think it makes a positive difference. There are some unfortunate ergonomic issues I need to address in order to be more consistent with that though, so I haven't been able to position myself to where I can hold the mouse, have my rack within reach and sit at a distance. That would be easier to work on than buying more speakers though. I'm the type that will quadruple check something like that (and did), so confident that replacement was done properly. It would sound super weird too. I would hear that for sure. Also a possibility. I don't have the same experience when I listen on my home stereo or in headphones though, and since I do experience this fatigue regularly, I am often addressing those "problem" frequency ranges with EQ and stuff like that, only to find that I'm dulling things out too much and still feeling the fatigue. All great points to raise and consider. I appreciate the post.
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Post by Guitar on Sept 21, 2019 8:21:46 GMT -6
I would spend as much time and effort as you can muster to nail that speaker / listening position in the room. It can make a HUGE difference in what you hear, especially in smallish, less treated rooms.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 8:27:30 GMT -6
Theory is great, but if you are unhappy definitely try a different position. Normally, you’d start with them about 1/3 of room length away from front wall ( wall behind the monitors). Have you ever had them here and used room ew wizard or Sonarworks to measure room ? I did some measurements last night... the 1/3 thing won't work. Room is just too small. It's 13' long, so roughly 4' from the front wall + the width of my desk + losing 4" of length to my acoustic panels puts my chair almost to the back of the room. I need to have space to play or have a singer mosh around the room. Haven't tried an measurement or corrective softwares like that.
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Post by mulmany on Sept 21, 2019 9:10:28 GMT -6
Theory is great, but if you are unhappy definitely try a different position. Normally, you’d start with them about 1/3 of room length away from front wall ( wall behind the monitors). Have you ever had them here and used room ew wizard or Sonarworks to measure room ? I did some measurements last night... the 1/3 thing won't work. Room is just too small. It's 13' long, so roughly 4' from the front wall + the width of my desk + losing 4" of length to my acoustic panels puts my chair almost to the back of the room. I need to have space to play or have a singer mosh around the room. Haven't tried an measurement or corrective softwares like that. I think kcatthedog meant listening position not speaker position. You can also vary the height of the speakers, so that they are not exciting a mode.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 9:39:37 GMT -6
I did some measurements last night... the 1/3 thing won't work. Room is just too small. It's 13' long, so roughly 4' from the front wall + the width of my desk + losing 4" of length to my acoustic panels puts my chair almost to the back of the room. I need to have space to play or have a singer mosh around the room. Haven't tried an measurement or corrective softwares like that. I think kcatthedog meant listening position not speaker position. You can also vary the height of the speakers, so that they are not exciting a mode. He said "them", so I assume that means the speakers. If he's talking listening position, I'm definitely right at the 1/3 mark.
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Post by Guitar on Sept 21, 2019 9:51:09 GMT -6
1/3 is not really always best. It's a "rule of thumb." In a small room, or an odd shaped room, often you are better with the speakers very close to the wall. Try the back edge of the speaker roughly 6-8 inches from the wall and listen to that.
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 21, 2019 12:02:52 GMT -6
The 1/3 thing is a theory of where monitors should be, I was suggesting moving away from the front wall some significant difference and seeing/hearing. I’d suggest measuring your current position as a benchmark then experiment and retest. Nothing wrong with trial and error:)?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 12:30:28 GMT -6
1/3 is not really always best. It's a "rule of thumb." In a small room, or an odd shaped room, often you are better with the speakers very close to the wall. Try the back edge of the speaker roughly 6-8 inches from the wall and listen to that. They're a little closer than 6-8" now. Well, they're basically an inch from the treatment panels that are behind them. So technically about 5" from the wall itself. I actually tried a few different distance adjustments (1" increments forward or back) before settling with where they are. I was listening more for low frequency stuff than anything though.
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Post by Guitar on Sept 21, 2019 15:10:41 GMT -6
Try moving them vertically by +/- 12" there might be a sweet spot and a dead spot on a certain plane. That was a big one for me. You can stack them on phone books or whatever to test. Or get them lower somehow.
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