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Post by mrholmes on Sept 15, 2019 1:03:05 GMT -6
That’s why A-up / B-up is the way to go for me. Louder is always better to the subconscious. If the quieter one still wins, you know. At least for me. The thing is level matched doesn’t exist: add in that our ears are fletcher Munson.. hypothetical: : if A is quieter at 800hz, but louder (more dynamics) at 3khz, it will win a level matched AB. Thanks. This is great information. And the idea to ask which one supports the emotion of the song is also a great way to look at it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2019 6:21:54 GMT -6
ok and now go and listen to the music in my sig all mixed itb and tell me it sounds bad :-)
Yup sounds good to me.. job well done..
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 15, 2019 6:59:46 GMT -6
Christopher is right about level matching, I did an online shoot out using Pultech hardware EQ versus a Pultech plug-in, and people thought I had raised the level of the hardware, but I didn’t, it just pushes at different frequencies.
The cumulative affect of multiple plug-ins sneaks up on you. In 2012, when I was just getting started digitally, a friend stopped by to help me out. He has about 50 gold records on his wall, many of them classic albums we refer to constantly. The first thing he did, removed almost every plug and I had, and I’m sorry to say, it did sound better.
So I use plug-ins for what they sound like not what they’re supposed to sound like, and I’m quite happy with that. For instance, after six years of using it, the UAD ATR - 102 helps every mix, and I personally don’t need a two track tape recorder at this time.
My current dilemma is if I want to go back to a hardware mixer or not. I’m quite interested in the SSL Six, since I mainly record one or two tracks at a time.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 15, 2019 12:30:03 GMT -6
No, not "confirmation bias". The problem here is that the conditions of the typical ABX test are such as to confuse the listener and make him doubt and second guess his own perceptions, to the point that his uncertainty overwhelms his ability to listen critically. I believe that only the first one or two passes of an A/B or A/B/X test have any validity at all and after that it all goes down the toilet. How many times when doing a mix you've "compared" things until you don't know which way is up anymore and may even settle on a final decision such that when you come back to it after a day or so you wonder what the hell you were thinking? I'd bet that pretty much everybody here has experienced that.
I cant wipe away the psychlogical fact that in Blind AB the diffrences where gone. Thats for me confirmation bias, our brain loves to search for confirmation. I also cant wipe away that even experienced AE have fooled thier hearing perception by not doing a correct level matching. I did it many times believing A sounds better than B. Bob Katz once told me that he fooled his ears by a diffrence of fraction of a db in comparing DAs...made him believe he found the holy grail. Level matching is very important. It has been known for a long time that the human ear interprets t5he louder of two sources as "better" even if the loudness difference in not great enough to be identidied as such.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 15, 2019 12:37:51 GMT -6
That’s why A-up / B-up is the way to go for me. Louder is always better to the subconscious. If the quieter one still wins, you know. At least for me. The thing is level matched doesn’t exist: add in that our ears are fletcher Munson.. hypothetical: : if A is quieter at 800hz, but louder (more dynamics) at 3khz, it will win a level matched AB. I'm not totally sure of that. And I don't think that anyone has actually researched in, either. If someone has, I'd like to see a reference - it's a tricky subject.
I don't think that's a very good choice of frequencies - 800 Hz is not low enough to really be that affected by Fletcher-Munson.
Also, Fletcher-Munson is level dependent.
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Post by notneeson on Sept 15, 2019 13:32:59 GMT -6
RMS level match gives you a baseline so you can differentiate those frequency dependent differences. That’s the point.
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Post by chessparov on Sept 15, 2019 16:03:46 GMT -6
I'm going "Cold Turkey", on Plugins ala "Tape Saturation" style. Good learning experience for me. Chris
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Post by mrholmes on Sept 16, 2019 4:45:03 GMT -6
Christopher is right about level matching, I did an online shoot out using Pultech hardware EQ versus a Pultech plug-in, and people thought I had raised the level of the hardware, but I didn’t, it just pushes at different frequencies. The cumulative affect of multiple plug-ins sneaks up on you. In 2012, when I was just getting started digitally, a friend stopped by to help me out. He has about 50 gold records on his wall, many of them classic albums we refer to constantly. The first thing he did, removed almost every plug and I had, and I’m sorry to say, it did sound better. So I use plug-ins for what they sound like not what they’re supposed to sound like, and I’m quite happy with that. For instance, after six years of using it, the UAD ATR - 102 helps every mix, and I personally don’t need a two track tape recorder at this time. My current dilemma is if I want to go back to a hardware mixer or not. I’m quite interested in the SSL Six, since I mainly record one or two tracks at a time.
I don't know if this all is true all the time. Maybe it's a mix of everything what we discussed here.
With the Slate 1176 simulations I am sure I fooled myself often with wrong level matching compared to the hardware, to make it even harder to compare Slate simulated the output transformer and that output knob is a hell of thing if you try to move it via a mouse.
Like I said in the plug ins exception there are a few which react like hardware. I have to admit staple too much of em leads in a stupid sound but I guess the same would happen with hardware.
There is also the thing with gainstaging ITB I get the feeling its more critical ITB vs. OTB. My impression is some plug ins hate to be fed with a high peak level.....
-20 to -24 dbfs peak sounds often better to my ears.
What has been said about the controller thing, it should be easy to do in Logic via Smart Controls.
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Post by shoe on Sept 16, 2019 18:49:41 GMT -6
I hate to say that I did a mix of one of my own songs almost totally using analog outboard prints the other day but got a bit lazy and used a 33609 plugin on the drum bus instead of my BAE 10DCFs. Man...the more I listen to it, the more it sticks out like a sore thumb.
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Post by mcirish on Sept 17, 2019 9:41:29 GMT -6
Maybe some are like me. 'IF" I had the money, space and time, I might prefer to use hardware. But in most cases, I am jumping between projects and I need to be able to pick up where I left off. That's the real advantage of plugins to me. I do use a lot of Softube, Plugin Alliance and a few Waves plugins mostly. They all have their place. They do not sound 100% accurate to the hardware but then again, most hardware units have some differences from serial number to serial number. Age of the electronics is going to play a big role in this. I also agree with many that I could mix quicker with hardware, and it does have a lot more tolerance for being abused. It's just tough to work on a dozen different mixes and still use hardware. Plugins have come a long way. I don't really think of them as a 1 to 1 replacement. I just view them as a different tool to get the job done as well as I can.
At the end of the day, most people end up hearing my mixes on crappy laptop speakers or earbuds. We stress over things that very few people can appreciate.
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 17, 2019 15:36:57 GMT -6
Maybe some are like me. 'IF" I had the money, space and time, I might prefer to use hardware. But in most cases, I am jumping between projects and I need to be able to pick up where I left off. That's the real advantage of plugins to me. I do use a lot of Softube, Plugin Alliance and a few Waves plugins mostly. They all have their place. They do not sound 100% accurate to the hardware but then again, most hardware units have some differences from serial number to serial number. Age of the electronics is going to play a big role in this. I also agree with many that I could mix quicker with hardware, and it does have a lot more tolerance for being abused. It's just tough to work on a dozen different mixes and still use hardware. Plugins have come a long way. I don't really think of them as a 1 to 1 replacement. I just view them as a different tool to get the job done as well as I can. People always talk about how hardware is often slightly different from unit to unit but they're missing the point. The point is that software ISN'T different from instantiation to instantiation and that lack of difference builds up over multiple tracks and often that "lack of difference" involves some of the details the programmers missed or cut corners on during programming. When you settle for "good enough" too many times in exactly the same way it has a way of adding up to "not really good enough". It lacks dimensionality, for lack of a better term. The fact that hardware has slight differences between units is often a benefit, not a problem.
It isn't our fault or problem if people choose to listen on garbage playback hardware and it shouldn't be allowed to affect our mix aesthetic. We should always strive to do the best quality mix we can. If the punters muck it up it's on THEM.
And that way, should somebody who matters happens to hear your work on a good system they will get the best possible impression.
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Post by drbill on Sept 17, 2019 16:57:22 GMT -6
I'm just kinda laughing right now. Took a drum loop (rock) that I've used before, ran it thru the Coil CA70S's, then into the Serpent SB4001, and what came out was the hugest, most slamming sound - very similar to hitting tape hard with a great old console (only better IMO). Took all of about 3 minutes, didn't even really tweak or try that much. Half that time was spent L/R matching the coils. ITB, I could work on that sound for a hour and not get 1/3-1/2 as good. Silly good. Really reminded me of this thread. If you're got great OTB gear, the whole thing just becomes fun and looking at the ITB "solutions" - well....what can I say......amusing??
Good times. Hardware is a bargain compared to 30 years ago.
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