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Post by indiehouse on Sept 11, 2019 13:24:15 GMT -6
I was listening to music on NPR today, and they played a track from some guy I’ve never heard of (which is actually why I enjoy listening to music on NPR). When I heard the drums, I caught myself wondering if they were SD3 drums or something. They sounded...perfect. Like, almost too perfect. So, how common is it for programmed drums like SD3 to make it on album releases? Obviously, I’m not talking national big budget stuff, but maybe smaller, local/regional stuff that is maybe self-financed.
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Post by indiehouse on Sept 11, 2019 13:26:11 GMT -6
I guess I’m asking because my default thinking whenever producing a track is “I’ve got to track a drummer”. But maybe, could someone get away with using SD3 and no one would be the wiser?
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Post by hadaja on Sept 11, 2019 15:56:12 GMT -6
Could you want to list the Artist song so we can look it up and hear the example?
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Post by indiehouse on Sept 11, 2019 15:59:30 GMT -6
Could you want to list the Artist song so we can look it up and hear the example? Oh geesh, I don’t even remember his name. Nor was it a particularly memorable song. Just kinda got me wondering how common it was to release stuff with SD3 type drums.
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Post by hadaja on Sept 11, 2019 17:10:45 GMT -6
One of my friends did a song at a well known studio and they did play live drums but replaced the snare and kick with samples that could have been sd3. Here’s the song by his 16 yr old daughter singer songwriter guitar player. Song is on Spotify - we must be right by Casey Klein
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Post by svart on Sept 11, 2019 17:22:32 GMT -6
I think it's common to track a drummer then do hit replacement and quantizing on anything radio bound.
To that end, I'm sure a drum machine could sound fine using real samples.
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Post by winetree on Sept 11, 2019 17:34:07 GMT -6
Programed drums. Steely Dan
Even though he has a full acoustic and percussion set-up, For song writing my drummer plays a Roland V drum set into SD3. It's hard to tell the difference.
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Post by bigbone on Sept 11, 2019 18:02:02 GMT -6
Programed drums. Steely Dan Roger Nichols, who was one of the engineers on the Gaucho sessions, fashioned a drum machine they used on this track. Dubbed "Wendel," it was one of the first of its kind, and it allowed them to record Rick Marotta's drum parts and play them back with perfect precision. The LM-1, which was the first programable drum machine sold to the public that sampled real instruments, was introduced in 1980, the year Gaucho was released, so many assumed that's what Steely Dan used. They didn't, but there was a connection. Roger Linn, who created the LM-1, told Songfacts: "By coincidence, Roger and I had both bought our first computers in around 1975 at a place called Computer Power and Light in Studio City, an area of Los Angeles. Wendel used that same computer and a early but high-quality digital audio interface, running a program he had written to enter simple looping beats on the screen. A very creative and talented guy."
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Post by drbill on Sept 11, 2019 18:32:44 GMT -6
It's incredibly common. More common with various styles, but there is no onus in programmed drums. The 80's were full of them.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 11, 2019 20:53:37 GMT -6
I bet a real drummer on a nice v drum set could sound indistinguishable. Hell, they're actual acoustic drums anyway. I usually find it’s the room that somewhat gives it away. Lots of times, I’ll break out sd3 and treat them exactly like i would real drums.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Sept 11, 2019 20:57:42 GMT -6
I guess it depends on the music?
Modern rock, country, pop - yeah that’s all pretty much samples, replaced drummers, or heavily leaned that way. For the most part the drums are compressed to all hell anyway.
Would Jay Bellrose sound the same on a V kit? Nope.
I actually just died on the inside a little bit thinking of that scenario.
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Post by theshea on Sept 12, 2019 1:43:18 GMT -6
it's a DRUMMER - not a musician. off course he gets replaced! :-)
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Post by swurveman on Sept 12, 2019 7:25:47 GMT -6
Programed drums. Steely Dan Even though he has a full acoustic and percussion set-up, For song writing my drummer plays a Roland V drum set into SD3. It's hard to tell the difference. The ZZ Top album Eliminator - ZZ Top's most commercially successful release- used a drum machine, and that was back in 1994.
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Post by Blackdawg on Sept 12, 2019 8:05:05 GMT -6
All the time. Too often really.
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Post by indiehouse on Sept 12, 2019 8:36:01 GMT -6
I bet a real drummer on a nice v drum set could sound indistinguishable. Hell, they're actual acoustic drums anyway. I usually find it’s the room that somewhat gives it away. Lots of times, I’ll break out sd3 and treat them exactly like i would real drums. Interesting. What do you mean by the room giving it away? Because I think I feel the same, now that you mentioned it. Something about it just sounds too polished for me, which always makes me think it's VI drums or something.
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Post by indiehouse on Sept 12, 2019 8:44:01 GMT -6
I think it's common to track a drummer then do hit replacement and quantizing on anything radio bound. To that end, I'm sure a drum machine could sound fine using real samples. I guess I'm more talking about VI drums (like SD3) than I am replacing real with samples. Perhaps with midi loops or something.
I'm working on a tune which I tracked drums for a long while back. Now that I'm getting back into it, I don't like the drums at all. They are way too roomy sounding, lacking punch, and I want tight/dry and punchy. I could retrack, but that would take a pretty sizable and coordinated effort. It would be way easier for me to get away with starting from scratch using SD3, but I want them to feel 'real', if that makes sense. I played around a bit last night, and it didn't sound terrible. A little too polished for my taste, but an improvement over the real drums.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 12, 2019 11:37:27 GMT -6
I bet a real drummer on a nice v drum set could sound indistinguishable. Hell, they're actual acoustic drums anyway. I usually find it’s the room that somewhat gives it away. Lots of times, I’ll break out sd3 and treat them exactly like i would real drums. Interesting. What do you mean by the room giving it away? Because I think I feel the same, now that you mentioned it. Something about it just sounds too polished for me, which always makes me think it's VI drums or something. Seems like I always tend to think everything is too wet. Like - that sounds pretty great solo’d, but just like real drums, I’m rarely wanting (that) much room. Most of the time I add verb to the snare and that’s about it.
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Post by jakeboy on Sept 12, 2019 18:16:47 GMT -6
Prince was all about the Linn drum machine and Springsteen even used one on The Born in the USA album. Lots of peeps use drum machines.
I use AR 70s drums on my solo album releases and I play them on Korg pads and people compliment the actual drum tone but sadly not the drummer LOL.
When AC Rev tracks though we play real acoustic drums and this is what I prefer....but AC takes care of that.
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Post by svart on Sept 12, 2019 20:52:32 GMT -6
I think it's common to track a drummer then do hit replacement and quantizing on anything radio bound. To that end, I'm sure a drum machine could sound fine using real samples. I guess I'm more talking about VI drums (like SD3) than I am replacing real with samples. Perhaps with midi loops or something.
I'm working on a tune which I tracked drums for a long while back. Now that I'm getting back into it, I don't like the drums at all. They are way too roomy sounding, lacking punch, and I want tight/dry and punchy. I could retrack, but that would take a pretty sizable and coordinated effort. It would be way easier for me to get away with starting from scratch using SD3, but I want them to feel 'real', if that makes sense. I played around a bit last night, and it didn't sound terrible. A little too polished for my taste, but an improvement over the real drums.
I think my point was that if you go the distance to take real drums, hack up, replace and quantize then until they're essentially programmed drums.. What's the difference at that point?
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Post by notneeson on Sept 13, 2019 7:36:13 GMT -6
I guess I'm more talking about VI drums (like SD3) than I am replacing real with samples. Perhaps with midi loops or something.
I'm working on a tune which I tracked drums for a long while back. Now that I'm getting back into it, I don't like the drums at all. They are way too roomy sounding, lacking punch, and I want tight/dry and punchy. I could retrack, but that would take a pretty sizable and coordinated effort. It would be way easier for me to get away with starting from scratch using SD3, but I want them to feel 'real', if that makes sense. I played around a bit last night, and it didn't sound terrible. A little too polished for my taste, but an improvement over the real drums.
I think my point was that if you go the distance to take real drums, hack up, replace and quantize then until they're essentially programmed drums.. What's the difference at that point? Slightly more realistic hat and cymbal sounds.
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Post by keymod on Sept 13, 2019 10:09:11 GMT -6
Programed drums. Steely Dan Even though he has a full acoustic and percussion set-up, For song writing my drummer plays a Roland V drum set into SD3. It's hard to tell the difference. When playing SD3 with the V-drum kit, can he do it in real time and break out the individual drums to separate tracks without any irritating latency?
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Post by popmann on Sept 13, 2019 12:25:34 GMT -6
Programed drums. Steely Dan Even though he has a full acoustic and percussion set-up, For song writing my drummer plays a Roland V drum set into SD3. It's hard to tell the difference. When playing SD3 with the V-drum kit, can he do it in real time and break out the individual drums to separate tracks without any irritating latency? Breaking out into multiple channels doesn't make for any additional latency.
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Post by keymod on Sept 13, 2019 13:20:36 GMT -6
When playing SD3 with the V-drum kit, can he do it in real time and break out the individual drums to separate tracks without any irritating latency? Breaking out into multiple channels doesn't make for any additional latency. Thanks, but is the overall latency irritating to a drummer, or is it workable, so that they can play, monitor and record SD3 samples in real time - without having to make any adjustments later? I have heard of some people monitoring the onboard Roland sounds while they record the SD3 or other library's samples because of the timing difference, which they say makes it more difficult to play with. Maybe that's due to their computer, and not to the Vdrum/SD3 combination?
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Post by popmann on Sept 13, 2019 18:20:35 GMT -6
Breaking out into multiple channels doesn't make for any additional latency. Thanks, but is the overall latency irritating to a drummer, or is it workable, so that they can play, monitor and record SD3 samples in real time - without having to make any adjustments later? I have heard of some people monitoring the onboard Roland sounds while they record the SD3 or other library's samples because of the timing difference, which they say makes it more difficult to play with. Maybe that's due to their computer, and not to the Vdrum/SD3 combination? There's a lot of people are trying to do this now who don't have experience with running software instruments at low latencies. I have a feeling that some of the drum brains--higher end ones particularly...might trigger the sounds before they even make MIDI data. So, it's not like I've sat here with a $3k Roland kit and sticks....but, I literally just opened SD3 in my DAW and a drum kit patch on my Kronos and it does even flam. I mean you could literally track that as a layered kick sound--happening at the same time on my DAC. Anyway-=but my DAW is set to 256 samples 96khz running a full tracking project I'm in the middle of...suffice to say I test against hardware regularly (albeit piano/keyboard hardware)...and don't ACCEPT less than that from a machine. I've been using software instruments alongside hardware digital ones since like 1998. FWIW. And I'm a snowflake when it comes to latency. Too much of one probably. I think what IS very true to say is that not everyone's system that can run SD3...can run it well at hardware latencies AND run it at hardware latencies inside ANY DAW. Part of the "knowing what you're doing" is prioritizing the real time abilities of what you buy. If you don't use software instruments or amps regularly--you don't necessarily have a system that can do it. It's mostly unrealted to CPU speed.
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Post by popmann on Sept 13, 2019 20:12:12 GMT -6
To swoop back, the OP is asking about "programmed drums"....which is a more complicated subject. There are multiple elements that separate "drummer in room playing acoustic kit" from "MIDI drum machine". Ironically, as has been pointed out, a LOT of them have been taken AWAY from the real drummer over the last 20 years...Tempo....quantization of timing...MIDI sequencer limitations...and the sounds. The sounds are the EASY part because most records seem to want to make real drums sound fake. And as it's been pointed out--the push to make them mechanical has resulted in the line being blurred MORE...once you make someone play to a click, Beat Detective them, and then replace their hits with samples--the only difference in that and "programmed drums" is the timing limitations of MIDI sequencers-which is largely irrelevant since you were going to quantize them ANYWAY...and sure--a real high hat, which ain't nothing.
So the short answer to the OP is "of course you can"...and the longer answer might just be "...but it's WAY easier to record a real drummer playing a real drum kit if you want the sound of a real drum kit in a room". Because a LOT of what appears to be an advantage of "MIDI programming" makes it sound and FEEL...NOT like that. You have to have way more understanding about what MAKES things feel the way they do that likely most drummers do. They're just you know--playing drums.
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