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Post by lpedrum on Sept 10, 2019 19:22:27 GMT -6
I would think everyone here is tracking well below levels which get anywhere close to clipping A/D? But putting down gain rides post-preamp /compression for benefiting the dynamics of the song, that makes sense. Less to do later. I'm in the mindset of take a few risks and capture the record going in as much as possible. If you gotta re-record a few things after the fact so be it. (...Btw never mentioned this yet, but the Silver Bullet sounds awesome from everything I've heard. Great work) Thanks. You are of course right. But from my understanding, that's not what lpedrum was talking about. He wanted something post mic and pre-mic pre to ride levels going INTO the mic pre to avoid over saturation of the pre while still being able to stage it hot to get the saturation he wanted. IME, that's something best left to post-production. I learned the hard way.  It's my fault that I initially misunderstood what the One Fader does. Re using pres, I've been experimenting lately with pushing them hotter just to see what colors the transformers can provide. The Hairball Lola pre for instance has a lot of sonic options when manipulating the gain and output while recording electric guitar for instance. I'm not talking simply about clean vs. overdriven, I'm talking about the more subtle colorations in between those extremes. I agree that most of the time it's best to play it safe where the pre is set, not only to keep it from overloading but keeping clear of digital clipping. But please educate me if I'm wrong--aren't the transformers in pres that we cherish there for a reason? And If we barely push them with the mic aren't we only getting the cleanest of sounds that the pre is capable of? Am I wrong to think that way? I own the Silver Bullet and do use it after the fact to thicken tracks etc etc. But lately I've just been on a kick to capture more going in (including eq and compression) instead of leaving EVERYTHING to the mix. I'm a musician first on a long road to getting better at the whole engineering thing. I came late to this game and I'm willing to be schooled regularly! That's why I wander the halls of RGO. |
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Post by drbill on Sept 10, 2019 20:19:28 GMT -6
Thanks. You are of course right. But from my understanding, that's not what lpedrum was talking about. He wanted something post mic and pre-mic pre to ride levels going INTO the mic pre to avoid over saturation of the pre while still being able to stage it hot to get the saturation he wanted. IME, that's something best left to post-production. I learned the hard way. It's my fault that I initially misunderstood what the One Fader does. Re using pres, I've been experimenting lately with pushing them hotter just to see what colors the transformers can provide. The Hairball Lola pre for instance has a lot of sonic options when manipulating the gain and output while recording electric guitar for instance. I'm not talking simply about clean vs. overdriven, I'm talking about the more subtle colorations in between those extremes. I agree that most of the time it's best to play it safe where the pre is set, not only to keep it from overloading but keeping clear of digital clipping. But please educate me if I'm wrong--aren't the transformers in pres that we cherish there for a reason? And If we barely push them with the mic aren't we only getting the cleanest of sounds that the pre is capable of? Am I wrong to think that way? I own the Silver Bullet and do use it after the fact to thicken tracks etc etc. But lately I've just been on a kick to capture more going in (including eq and compression) instead of leaving EVERYTHING to the mix. I'm a musician first on a long road to getting better at the whole engineering thing. I came late to this game and I'm willing to be schooled regularly! That's why I wander the halls of RGO. You're not wrong to think that way, but it can also be tricky, resulting in ruined takes if you or your talent is not careful. Back in the day, transformers were not put into gear with the intention of driving them into saturation. That's something that engineers made them do in the studio when things started to get too clean. At one point in time (long before digital) that would have been generally considered bad form. But things have changed. On E Gtr you can probably get away with setting the input hot during the big moments and take advantage of the color. On vocals, IME it's not so easy. Or I should say OFTEN it's not so easy. You can get huge swings of amplitude changes during a vocal - from whisper to a scream, and the input transformer on the pre can easily saturate beyond good taste if your vocalist hits it hard. I try to get a BIT of color at all points in the production process. A little with the mic, a little more with the pre, some more with a comp or TWO, perhaps some additional with EQ. Then some additional during production, and then I fill it in to perfection during the mix. I rarely try to "get it all at once". The color of the recordings we cherished were acquired with multiple layers of patina during the production process. They weren't swinging for the fences in terms of colour right out of the gate. Generally speaking. (Always exceptions....) Why not locate your pre next to you so you can easily grab the input trim and adjust as needed? |
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Post by lpedrum on Sept 11, 2019 12:16:08 GMT -6
It's my fault that I initially misunderstood what the One Fader does. Re using pres, I've been experimenting lately with pushing them hotter just to see what colors the transformers can provide. The Hairball Lola pre for instance has a lot of sonic options when manipulating the gain and output while recording electric guitar for instance. I'm not talking simply about clean vs. overdriven, I'm talking about the more subtle colorations in between those extremes. I agree that most of the time it's best to play it safe where the pre is set, not only to keep it from overloading but keeping clear of digital clipping. But please educate me if I'm wrong--aren't the transformers in pres that we cherish there for a reason? And If we barely push them with the mic aren't we only getting the cleanest of sounds that the pre is capable of? Am I wrong to think that way? I own the Silver Bullet and do use it after the fact to thicken tracks etc etc. But lately I've just been on a kick to capture more going in (including eq and compression) instead of leaving EVERYTHING to the mix. I'm a musician first on a long road to getting better at the whole engineering thing. I came late to this game and I'm willing to be schooled regularly! That's why I wander the halls of RGO. You're not wrong to think that way, but it can also be tricky, resulting in ruined takes if you or your talent is not careful. Back in the day, transformers were not put into gear with the intention of driving them into saturation. That's something that engineers made them do in the studio when things started to get too clean. At one point in time (long before digital) that would have been generally considered bad form. But things have changed. On E Gtr you can probably get away with setting the input hot during the big moments and take advantage of the color. On vocals, IME it's not so easy. Or I should say OFTEN it's not so easy. You can get huge swings of amplitude changes during a vocal - from whisper to a scream, and the input transformer on the pre can easily saturate beyond good taste if your vocalist hits it hard. I try to get a BIT of color at all points in the production process. A little with the mic, a little more with the pre, some more with a comp or TWO, perhaps some additional with EQ. Then some additional during production, and then I fill it in to perfection during the mix. I rarely try to "get it all at once". The color of the recordings we cherished were acquired with multiple layers of patina during the production process. They weren't swinging for the fences in terms of colour right out of the gate. Generally speaking. (Always exceptions....) Why not locate your pre next to you so you can easily grab the input trim and adjust as needed? I agree with the thought of not getting it "all at once." But what I'm trying to do more these days is track sounds that inspire me going in, and not wait and hope that I can manipulate the track later into something more pleasurable. I think one of the downsides of the digital revolution was just that--tracking everything low and untouched because there are some many options available later in the process. The problem with that approach is that we sometimes turn our ears off if we're just going for a "safe signal." And honestly, "safe" doesn't always end up mixing well. |
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Post by notneeson on Sept 11, 2019 13:32:51 GMT -6
Yeah, makes sense. Safe can be very boring.
I find the combo that gets me there is often (but not always) tracking with compression. Notably a great mic, into a great pre, into some combo of opto and fet compression, both comps working but not overly hard. Distressor can work too, although it’s often not my favorite choice.
I have also run the Phoenix DRS2 hot on vocals, exactly like you’re describing.
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Post by drbill on Sept 11, 2019 18:31:13 GMT -6
You're not wrong to think that way, but it can also be tricky, resulting in ruined takes if you or your talent is not careful. Back in the day, transformers were not put into gear with the intention of driving them into saturation. That's something that engineers made them do in the studio when things started to get too clean. At one point in time (long before digital) that would have been generally considered bad form. But things have changed. On E Gtr you can probably get away with setting the input hot during the big moments and take advantage of the color. On vocals, IME it's not so easy. Or I should say OFTEN it's not so easy. You can get huge swings of amplitude changes during a vocal - from whisper to a scream, and the input transformer on the pre can easily saturate beyond good taste if your vocalist hits it hard. I try to get a BIT of color at all points in the production process. A little with the mic, a little more with the pre, some more with a comp or TWO, perhaps some additional with EQ. Then some additional during production, and then I fill it in to perfection during the mix. I rarely try to "get it all at once". The color of the recordings we cherished were acquired with multiple layers of patina during the production process. They weren't swinging for the fences in terms of colour right out of the gate. Generally speaking. (Always exceptions....) Why not locate your pre next to you so you can easily grab the input trim and adjust as needed? I agree with the thought of not getting it "all at once." But what I'm trying to do more these days is track sounds that inspire me going in, and not wait and hope that I can manipulate the track later into something more pleasurable. I think one of the downsides of the digital revolution was just that--tracking everything low and untouched because there are some many options available later in the process. The problem with that approach is that we sometimes turn our ears off if we're just going for a "safe signal." And honestly, "safe" doesn't always end up mixing well. Try putting a compressor, or your Silver Bullet or 2 compressors after your mic pre chain instead of trying to get all the mojo out of your mic/pre combo. I think you will get there!!! |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Sept 11, 2019 20:54:47 GMT -6
Damn! Love the 16 I use, but this is such a cool option.
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