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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 7, 2019 8:14:16 GMT -6
Probably not the best title - I’m sure this type of room correction has been around for a while - but if we (ok, me) are trusting these room correction units (e.g. Sonarworks, Trinnov, etc.) why would monitors make that much of a difference? If I have a hole at 80-100 Hz in my room, it doesn’t really matter if I get a biggie driver at all, right? I guess there’s perceived depth, width and timbre of the frequencies that can be different, but if room correction “corrects” the equalization of your speakers for the room, wouldn’t the differences in monitoring not be that large?
Basically, why should I upgrade my monitors at this point?
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 7, 2019 8:15:57 GMT -6
Am I on the right track answering with - more headroom, better reproduction before correction, etc?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 7, 2019 8:27:50 GMT -6
Better dynamics. Quicker transients...
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Post by svart on Aug 7, 2019 8:28:52 GMT -6
The correction only works at the point where the microphone is placed. Move a little from that point and all bets are off. I think the correction works if you're talking about driver correction, such as when DSP crossovers are used to flatten out speaker response in an anechoic chamber, but not in rooms, since we're not completely stationary when listening and these room corrections don't account for modes at different places in the room.
Also, like I mentioned in the other thread about the laser-beam tweeter in the Barefoot 01's, even the dispersion pattern of the drivers matters here. You can't correct for that either.
So these programs can't correct for room modes beyond where the measurement mic is placed, and they can't account for driver dispersion patterns either..
Which, to me, says that room correction should still always be done physically so that room modes are reduced, and that speaker/monitor choice still matters in avenues like the width of "sweet spots". Raw frequency response can be corrected, but it's going to do NOTHING for room mode problems, and probably cause worse issues if you have deep nulls or tall spikes in frequency response as those are just symptoms of the real problem, but not the actual root of the problem. Room correction software seems cool on the surface, but the basics of room tuning still matter.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 7, 2019 8:32:48 GMT -6
It's kinda the same question as 'why should I have more than one preamp/etc type?' Plenty of things measure in one fashion as being the same, and sound totally different. How many omni mics are ruler flat on paper and don't even sound like the same thing at all in practice; most.
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Post by swurveman on Aug 7, 2019 9:11:00 GMT -6
I didn't like Arc, bought Sonarworks, and didn't like it. I'm happier knowing my room and my monitors. If anybody wants to buy my Sonarworks with the mic, I'll be glad to sell it to them
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Post by mcirish on Aug 7, 2019 16:32:56 GMT -6
I have a big dip at 90HZ in my room. It's definitely caused by room modes. By moving my speakers around, I was able to reduce the dip by 6dB. Then I used Sonarworks to even it all out at the mix position. I'm a huge fan of Sonarworks now. Things just sound right and I don't have to guess what's happening in the low end.
I do also believe speakers make a huge difference, even when using Sonarworks. i have three sets of monitors and even with Sonarworks, they do not sound the same. I know it would seem that they would but there is more to it than just frequency response. The way they handle transients and phase issues is a big part of the sound.
I'm no great expert but I have done a lot of testing.
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avare
New Member
Posts: 5
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Post by avare on Aug 8, 2019 0:51:28 GMT -6
Three simple points: dispersion, distortion and output levels
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Aug 8, 2019 5:23:17 GMT -6
Details, transients, etc. Same as a microphone but in reverse. You can eq a microphone but its not gonna add something thats not there. A sm57 doesn't magically become a U47.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 8, 2019 12:07:47 GMT -6
Probably not the best title - I’m sure this type of room correction has been around for a while - but if we (ok, me) are trusting these room correction units (e.g. Sonarworks, Trinnov, etc.) why would monitors make that much of a difference? If I have a hole at 80-100 Hz in my room, it doesn’t really matter if I get a biggie driver at all, right? I guess there’s perceived depth, width and timbre of the frequencies that can be different, but if room correction “corrects” the equalization of your speakers for the room, wouldn’t the differences in monitoring not be that large? Basically, why should I upgrade my monitors at this point? Because EQ isn't the whole picture.
It's the same thing as trying to EQ one mic to sound like another - can't do it because the frequency response curve doesn't give you the whole picture.
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Post by nomatic on Aug 8, 2019 13:56:53 GMT -6
I will say that the cardioid systems like the D & D 8Cs with active room matching make a bigger difference than Trinnov with conventional designs.
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Post by Guitar on Aug 9, 2019 19:20:20 GMT -6
I don't think software is going to fix something like a nasty tweeter or a bad crossover, chuffing port, etc.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 9, 2019 19:27:18 GMT -6
I will say that the cardioid systems like the D & D 8Cs with active room matching make a bigger difference than Trinnov with conventional designs. Aren’t they $12k? They oughta wake up and make breakfast for me at that price.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 9, 2019 19:44:07 GMT -6
I will say that the cardioid systems like the D & D 8Cs with active room matching make a bigger difference than Trinnov with conventional designs. Aren’t they $12k? They oughta wake up and make breakfast for me at that price. What did some of those Dunlavey favored by mastering guys cost new, like $40K? They sound like it too. Every time I hear my mixes on a set of those in a good room with a good amp it's just full of 'duh' moments, shit I can't hear at all anywhere else. If you've got that without second guessing, you've got time to make breakfast instead of hitting the drive through.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 9, 2019 20:30:32 GMT -6
I guess I was under the assumption that we are more savvy here than to be talking about “bad” speakers. No one is talking about using Samson monitors.
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Post by Guitar on Aug 9, 2019 21:52:41 GMT -6
I would add that problems with speakers can be a matter of degree, and can still be found in "decent" or respectable monitors.
I guess you wouldn't get deep into room correction with a monitor you had problems with already though.
It's an interesting topic. Eric Valentine posted a great video on YouTube where he details his room and monitor setup. It involves acoustic treatment, subwoofers, measurement techniques, phase shifting, and he uses a hardware EQ to dial in his ideal response which I thought was mildly surprising. As well as a Behringer crossover. Well worth a watch.
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Post by nomatic on Aug 10, 2019 14:57:15 GMT -6
I will say that the cardioid systems like the D & D 8Cs with active room matching make a bigger difference than Trinnov with conventional designs. Aren’t they $12k? They oughta wake up and make breakfast for me at that price. It only hurts for little while! The bottom line is my work translates perfectly without additional reference monitors every time.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 10, 2019 19:50:42 GMT -6
It’s $6200 each right?
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Post by nomatic on Aug 11, 2019 6:32:20 GMT -6
Yep....
once you get them configured you will stop thinking about monitors ...
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 11, 2019 13:31:42 GMT -6
Yep.... once you get them configured you will stop thinking about monitors ... Don’t get me wrong. I’d LOVE to have them. Just can’t justify that kind of expense for ROI - for me... Also think they’d probably be too big for my room.
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Post by nudwig on Aug 14, 2019 16:29:12 GMT -6
Yep.... once you get them configured you will stop thinking about monitors ... Don’t get me wrong. I’d LOVE to have them. Just can’t justify that kind of expense for ROI - for me... Also think they’d probably be too big for my room. Not trying to play devil's advocate John (even used at a good price I sold 2 pairs of monitors and stretched to get them) but I have the 8c's set up nearfield in a smaller room. Such crazy monitors, once set up I found that I can get very close to the same information as I could in the mastering studio of the engineer I bought them from. Not saying they negated the room completely but I was surprised at how similar they sounded in my space and how much info I now have on hand (as well as how much work I need to do to be a better engineer). I have to thank nomatic for bringing attention to these. To get back to topic, I tested the internal filters vs Sonarworks and it was no contest, much more natural with the internal filters.
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 14, 2019 17:30:45 GMT -6
Don’t get me wrong. I’d LOVE to have them. Just can’t justify that kind of expense for ROI - for me... Also think they’d probably be too big for my room. Not trying to play devil's advocate John (even used at a good price I sold 2 pairs of monitors and stretched to get them) but I have the 8c's set up nearfield in a smaller room. Such crazy monitors, once set up I found that I can get very close to the same information as I could in the mastering studio of the engineer I bought them from. Not saying they negated the room completely but I was surprised at how similar they sounded in my space and how much info I now have on hand (as well as how much work I need to do to be a better engineer). I have to thank nomatic for bringing attention to these. To get back to topic, I tested the internal filters vs Sonarworks and it was no contest, much more natural with the internal filters. Thanks for giving me lust after a pair of speakers I cannot afford (or justify). Though I do have a pair of Atomic SixTens that I recently picked up. Just got the power amp back today, it was rebuilt with an upgraded input section.
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Post by stormymondays on Aug 15, 2019 3:45:30 GMT -6
It’d be cool to have a thread on these monitors. I had never heard of them and now I think I should start saving up!!!
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Post by nomatic on Aug 15, 2019 5:47:03 GMT -6
These monitors have less negative interaction with ones room when properly set up than any monitor that I have used.... I am getting translation in the same league as soffit mounted atc's in a non engineered room. I think I started a thread about these a while back...
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Post by nudwig on Aug 15, 2019 15:39:25 GMT -6
These monitors have less negative interaction with ones room when properly set up than any monitor that I have used.... I am getting translation in the same league as soffit mounted atc's in a non engineered room. I think I started a thread about these a while back... There's indeed a thread, from maybe 2017? That's where I first became aware of them. The mastering engineer I bought them from went to soffited ATC 110's. In his room there was little to choose between them, different for sure but I would be overly happy to work on either as I do love ATC (keeping my 20ASLs even with having the D&D's). I'll find that thread to keep the derailment to a minimum.
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