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Post by drbill on Jul 23, 2019 10:55:05 GMT -6
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Post by drbill on Jul 23, 2019 10:55:28 GMT -6
Haven't seen them all, but loved the Greg Wells video....
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Post by svart on Jul 23, 2019 13:41:19 GMT -6
I know some of you guys have seen this already.... I thought it would be fun to have an LA perspective here instead of mostly being N'ville centric.....  Is that OK?? Haha! Eric is spectacular. His products over the top, and his engineering / mixing techniques top notch. www.youtube.com/channel/UChV4ZbmdvFZFDGN8XRzpIrQIt's interesting, I really do notice a trend between all the pros that release videos like this.. They all say that they're "bringing out" attributes in the mixes. Pretty much all of them start with great raw tracks, but the results are always "much more" than just the sum of the parts. And this is exactly the examples of what I have continuously said, and been denigrated for, by some folks who believe that as mixing engineers we shouldn't be meddling with client tracks more than necessary to assemble them into a mix. I keep saying that our jobs are creating a fantasy world from raw tracks and to make the result much more than just the sum of the parts. This is exactly that. Listen to the before and after in the drum mixing video. Massive pumping drums that make me smile from relatively boring raw tracks. |
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Post by drbill on Jul 23, 2019 13:43:41 GMT -6
Absolutely svart. Eric makes it bigger than life. I'm going to watch the drum video now.....
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Post by drbill on Jul 23, 2019 14:29:15 GMT -6
I know some of you guys have seen this already.... I thought it would be fun to have an LA perspective here instead of mostly being N'ville centric..... Is that OK?? Haha! Eric is spectacular. His products over the top, and his engineering / mixing techniques top notch. www.youtube.com/channel/UChV4ZbmdvFZFDGN8XRzpIrQIt's interesting, I really do notice a trend between all the pros that release videos like this.. They all say that they're "bringing out" attributes in the mixes. Pretty much all of them start with great raw tracks, but the results are always "much more" than just the sum of the parts. And this is exactly the examples of what I have continuously said, and been denigrated for, by some folks who believe that as mixing engineers we shouldn't be meddling with client tracks more than necessary to assemble them into a mix. I keep saying that our jobs are creating a fantasy world from raw tracks and to make the result much more than just the sum of the parts. This is exactly that. Listen to the before and after in the drum mixing video. Massive pumping drums that make me smile from relatively boring raw tracks. Yeah, when solo'd, i'm not necessarily sold, but you can't argue with his overall presentation within the song. I'm not sure I'd ever head out in the exact ways he does, but man, killer modern drum sound when he's got it all dialed. The original drums that Greg Wells played / produced sound great too IMO, but not explosive like Eric got them to sound in the final... Good stuff. I know for sure I learned something.... |
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Post by svart on Jul 23, 2019 14:35:46 GMT -6
It's interesting, I really do notice a trend between all the pros that release videos like this.. They all say that they're "bringing out" attributes in the mixes. Pretty much all of them start with great raw tracks, but the results are always "much more" than just the sum of the parts. And this is exactly the examples of what I have continuously said, and been denigrated for, by some folks who believe that as mixing engineers we shouldn't be meddling with client tracks more than necessary to assemble them into a mix. I keep saying that our jobs are creating a fantasy world from raw tracks and to make the result much more than just the sum of the parts. This is exactly that. Listen to the before and after in the drum mixing video. Massive pumping drums that make me smile from relatively boring raw tracks. Yeah, when solo'd, i'm not necessarily sold, but you can't argue with his overall presentation within the song. I'm not sure I'd ever head out in the exact ways he does, but man, killer modern drum sound when he's got it all dialed. The original drums that Greg Wells played / produced sound great too IMO, but not explosive like Eric got them to sound in the final... Good stuff. I know for sure I learned something.... Yeah in solo the processing sounds a bit overboard, but in the mix they sound amazing. He's probably using the drum pumping to trigger the bus compression for more excitement. |
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Post by donr on Jul 23, 2019 20:59:55 GMT -6
Ha, listen to Greg Holden "Save Yourself" on Spotify or elsewhere. Drums are huuge. So's the tune, loud as balls but musical. Gotta turn it down tho.. : )
The FabFilter Saturn is the secret weapon in the drum video svart is referencing. How to make digital sound like tape!
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Post by drbill on Jul 23, 2019 22:56:02 GMT -6
Ha, listen to Greg Holden "Save Yourself" on Spotify or elsewhere. Drums are huuge. So's the tune, loud as balls but musical. Gotta turn it down tho.. : ) The FabFilter Saturn is the secret weapon in the drum video svart is referencing. How to make digital sound like tape! Do you use Saturn Don? I think I'm going to pick it up. I'm not 100% convinced that it makes it sound like tape, but it certainly brings a cool grain to things that makes it speak. I really like the multi band aspect of it. I like decapitator too which he uses a lot. Eric's approach to drums is quite foreign to my way of doing things, but I'm intrigued with how great it sounds "in the mix". Like I said earlier, I learned something. I need to get to more of the video's. Again, loved the Greg Wells one. |
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Post by donr on Jul 24, 2019 5:21:12 GMT -6
"Save Yourself" got a lot louder in the release version than in Valentine's studio youtube tutorial. But the drum sound just bloomed more for the compression. The takeaway from the video was distortion, high passing of treble elements and attention to phase and time issues from multiple mics makes drums that pop and sound humongous on any playback system.
I mentioned listening to the release version to truly appreciate the journey from Greg's raw tracks to the finished mix. I'm a fan of Greg Wells too, and his mix bus Waves plugin is pretty cool. I may never do the style of superloud commercial music that rules today, but I sure would like to understand how it's done.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 24, 2019 7:13:24 GMT -6
drbill, this is really great. I listened to the first 35 minutes on my way to work this morning and really enjoyed it. Looking forward to watching the rest tonight.
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Post by matt@IAA on Jul 24, 2019 7:38:07 GMT -6
Maybe it is an unpopular opinion, but I find that style of gating drums to be really tough to listen to. I appreciate it, I just don't like it. It just sounds unnatural. The breathy distorted tail of the kick and snare suddenly cutting out as the gate closes jumps out every hit is really distracting.
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Post by svart on Jul 24, 2019 8:22:45 GMT -6
Maybe it is an unpopular opinion, but I find that style of gating drums to be really tough to listen to. I appreciate it, I just don't like it. It just sounds unnatural. The breathy distorted tail of the kick and snare suddenly cutting out as the gate closes jumps out every hit is really distracting. In solo, yeah, but in the mix it sounds fine to me. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Jul 24, 2019 8:29:30 GMT -6
In the denser part of the mix it's ok, but when it gets quieter it just nags at my ears. It's ok, I'm not trying to convince anyone to agree with me. I don't really like ketchup or mustard either, so, you know, I'm weird I guess.
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Post by levon on Jul 24, 2019 8:38:12 GMT -6
I've been following Eric for a couple of years now, love his work and insight. His guitars on his Slash and Third Eye Blind production sound amazing. Bought the Fabfilter Saturn after I saw his drum mix video and the Hofa IQ-EQ is on my list. That said, why do guys like him have a contact function on their website when they never answer?
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Post by drbill on Jul 24, 2019 9:18:31 GMT -6
In the denser part of the mix it's ok, but when it gets quieter it just nags at my ears. It's ok, I'm not trying to convince anyone to agree with me. I don't really like ketchup or mustard either, so, you know, I'm weird I guess. I hear ya. As I mentioned, it's certainly not the way I naturally head out when prepping / mixing, but there are nuggets in there that are great take-aways IMO that will make my mixing better. One thing I really enjoyed when I listened to the tune on Spotify where I could get more of a overall feel is how he emphasizes certain downbeats or fills with bigger, wider, deeper sounds. Really amazing. But yeah, on one of the intro's the drum fill really kinda bugged me.... His insight into sounds and how he describes differences is really quite brilliant IMO. |
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Post by drbill on Jul 24, 2019 9:33:16 GMT -6
PS - hey matt@IAA - check out the analog tape vs. plugins video where his wife (grace potter) is doing an eta james song for the muscle shoals tribute album. He records drums with a single mic - Beyer 160 ribbon. The sound he got out of that one mic is beyond amazing to me. Really cool stuff. |
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Post by svart on Jul 24, 2019 9:39:14 GMT -6
PS - hey matt@IAA - check out the analog tape vs. plugins video where his wife (grace potter) is doing an eta james song for the muscle shoals tribute album. He records drums with a single mic - Beyer 160 ribbon. The sound he got out of that one mic is beyond amazing to me. Really cool stuff. But did you catch all the processing he did to it to get it that way? I find it amazing how much work and processing goes into making things sound "natural" and we're left with folks who say "see, you only need one mic!". |
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Post by drbill on Jul 24, 2019 9:48:19 GMT -6
PS - hey matt@IAA - check out the analog tape vs. plugins video where his wife (grace potter) is doing an eta james song for the muscle shoals tribute album. He records drums with a single mic - Beyer 160 ribbon. The sound he got out of that one mic is beyond amazing to me. Really cool stuff. But did you catch all the processing he did to it to get it that way? I find it amazing how much work and processing goes into making things sound "natural" and we're left with folks who say "see, you only need one mic!". Yeah, I know. LOL But honestly, I have to watch it again. I still can't believe he got ONE mic sounding like that. I know it's a retro sound, but in comparing the original unprocessed sound to the record, it's amazing. |
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Post by lpedrum on Jul 24, 2019 9:51:41 GMT -6
Thanks for posting this Bill. The drum video is impressive in its scope and detail and there’s much to learn there.
However...as massive and impressive to the ears these techniques are I wonder if this current sound has “legs.” In the 80s many thought that the huge gated, canon sounding drums were amazing, but with hindsight they now sound bombastic and silly. Is that the fate of this current super processed, distorted drum sound? One thing that’s irrefutable is that the more you process drums the more you eliminate touch and dynamics and the drummer’s individuality. If that makes for a catchy powerful mix, cool. But there’s an artistic trade off.
Don’t get me wrong—I’m not a purist. There are many ways to create great sounding music and I try hard to stay open minded even when something’s not my bag. But the older I get as a working drummer the more my focus becomes touch and dynamics on the kit in the deepest most soulful way possible.
I guess there’s room to love and appreciate every approach if the result is great music. But as a drummer/producer I thought I’d weigh in. I do plan on checking out all of his videos as I’m sure I’ll gain some new insights.
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Post by matt@IAA on Jul 24, 2019 9:59:03 GMT -6
Yeah, he is a genius. I'm acquaintances with one of his protoges, Cian Riordan, and he's a genius too. Cian's taught me so much about drums and compression. It's kinda funny, he demo'd one of my products a few months back and when he sent me the samples I felt like the kid in back to the future when Marty gives the skateboard back.  |
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Post by donr on Jul 24, 2019 10:30:28 GMT -6
In the denser part of the mix it's ok, but when it gets quieter it just nags at my ears. It's ok, I'm not trying to convince anyone to agree with me. I don't really like ketchup or mustard either, so, you know, I'm weird I guess. Do you think if there was an overall reverb or ambience on all the drums the gates wouldn’t bother you? It doesn’t sound like ‘80’s gated or keyed noise snare. |
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Post by drbill on Jul 24, 2019 10:39:48 GMT -6
Thanks for posting this Bill. The drum video is impressive in its scope and detail and there’s much to learn there. However...as massive and impressive to the ears these techniques are I wonder if this current sound has “legs.” In the 80s many thought that the huge gated, canon sounding drums were amazing, but with hindsight they now sound bombastic and silly. Is that the fate of this current super processed, distorted drum sound? One thing that’s irrefutable is that the more you process drums the more you eliminate touch and dynamics and the drummer’s individuality. If that makes for a catchy powerful mix, cool. But there’s an artistic trade off. Don’t get me wrong—I’m not a purist. There are many ways to create great sounding music and I try hard to stay open minded even when something’s not my bag. But the older I get as a working drummer the more my focus becomes touch and dynamics on the kit in the deepest most soulful way possible. I guess there’s room to love and appreciate every approach if the result is great music. But as a drummer/producer I thought I’d weigh in. I do plan on checking out all of his videos as I’m sure I’ll gain some new insights. I don't disagree with your assessment one bit. ((of note though, I hate for this to become a drum centric thread, cause there's sooooooo much more that Eric shares on his videos) But yeah, I agree. I'm not generally heading for this type of sound, but I find the techniques fascinating, and I'm sure I can implement some of his techniques - although I doubt I'll ever be as heavy handed. As mentioned earlier, his one drum mic technique is so cool, as is his emphasizing downbeats with extra hits, opening up room mics, / etc. |
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Post by drbill on Jul 24, 2019 10:41:48 GMT -6
donr - are you using saturn Don? Thoughts on it?
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Post by donr on Jul 24, 2019 10:48:08 GMT -6
donr - are you using saturn Don? Thoughts on it? Not yet, Bill, but I'm intrigued with what Eric Valentine did with it. AFAIK, he just drove the upper frequencies into distortion while leaving the fundamentals largely untouched. I was also impressed with his endorsement of the FabFilter gate. Saturn seemed to enhance everything he put it on, even as he followed up with Decapitator, which I'm familiar with. As an amateur recordist, I'm impressed how much of perceived punch and power in tracks is distortion. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Jul 24, 2019 10:51:41 GMT -6
In the denser part of the mix it's ok, but when it gets quieter it just nags at my ears. It's ok, I'm not trying to convince anyone to agree with me. I don't really like ketchup or mustard either, so, you know, I'm weird I guess. Do you think if there was an overall reverb or ambience on all the drums the gates wouldn’t bother you? It doesn’t sound like ‘80’s gated or keyed noise snare. What catches my ear is when the gate closes. I don't mind the distortion at all, I love distorted drums. It's the combination of the exaggeration of the decay with the sudden end that gets me. I get the same kind of distraction from cymbals that have washy wah wah wah compression on them. So yeah, maybe a verb over the top to take the punch and decay it out would fix it. Good insight! |
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