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Post by Vincent R. on Jul 7, 2019 11:09:37 GMT -6
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Post by chessparov on Jul 7, 2019 12:47:10 GMT -6
Absolutely wonderful! A brilliant cartoon with genuine Pathos. All hail Willie, King of the High Seas! Nigh a dry eye to be seen. (where's the Love Button? ) Thanks so much, Chris
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Post by Vincent R. on Jul 7, 2019 13:06:06 GMT -6
Glad you enjoyed it!
So, I mentioned before about larynx positions and how it's a color, but also a necessity for classical. I thought it best to just give you guys an example of how it works. This is my TLM 170 through my apollo's built in preamp with no unison plugins at all. So this is about as neutral as I can get in my studio. I've sung a small snippet of "Open Arms." It's nice and high in my vocal range and helps demonstrate how things sound in all positions while approaching and going over my passagio. The sound in all samples is placed in my mask the exact same way, but the positional of the larynx provides a color and size difference in each sample. First is a higher larynx, which is how Steve Perry sings it. The second is a neutral larynx, which is how I would sing it if performing it and how Josh Groban would approach a similar piece. The last is an operatic sample with full cover. I actually forgot to sing the tail end of the phrase on the operatic sample. Sorry. I just did this quickly. I think they give a good idea of how they are different, also why the lowered larynx is important for classical singing.... It sounds huge and carries.
Part II will be about approaching rehearsing. I just need some time....and a brain to write it out. I've got toddler daddy brain today.
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Post by teejay on Jul 7, 2019 13:59:18 GMT -6
1. Why did I find myself watching this? 2. Why is even cartoon opera tragic?
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Post by bram on Jul 7, 2019 14:38:31 GMT -6
One of my favorite warm up exercises I learned at a vocal performance workshop. It's called the 'vocal straw'. Essentially, for 2-5m before a performance, you vocalize and tone through a small stirring straw, not letting any air through the nostrils.
As I understand it, this has the effect of creating back pressure on the vocal folds keeping them in a relaxed position as you ascend and descend in pitch. It's been very helpful for me in reinforcing proper muscle support as well as easily locating my passagios/breaks and smoothing them out.
I keep a bunch of straws in the studio for vocalists that come through before recording, those who give it a try find it brings the resonance of their voice higher into the mask rather than down in the throat. You might try straws with a few different diameters to find which one works best for you, with smaller straws create more back pressure. Here's a video describing the exercises in detail:
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Post by chessparov on Jul 7, 2019 15:47:26 GMT -6
As you know Vincent... 1 Toddler>3 Dogs, 1 cat, a kitten, and a Partridge in a Pear Tree! (to take care of)
Great demo of the 3 basic high/medium/low larynx positions. I was happy "to get the blessing" of Dr. Pelayo.. Singing with a slighty higher laryx position than "medium". (example clip down below)
Maybe not "quite" the same level of technique though. I left any sibilance/breath noises, because you can hear it "psycho-deli-sized", in the second clip here (same performance). Chris
P.S. The second clip is somewhat louder BTW.
EDIT: I'm also adding two other brief clips of "songs in progress". Sinatra's "Angel Eyes", and Build Me Up Buttercup (The Foundations) below. They are both "cold/one takes" I just recorded. I wanted to see (hear) the benefits of the "long toss" method I mentioned above. IMHO they are stronger "first takes", than to be expected previously. The slight rasp in the second song is deliberate BTW.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jul 9, 2019 12:19:35 GMT -6
Part II: Rehearsals
So it is important to differentiate between different types of rehearsals. Are you learning a new piece for the first time, training for a specific performance, or just keeping in shape? Each of these requires a different focus.
1. Learning a piece: I tend to keep things easy when learning a new song. Mark through the song and try to drill the different sections until I think I really know how it goes. Only then will I really start singing it. The last thing you want to do is develop muscle memory that is incorrect. You want to make sure that you learn the piece of music before you start getting that piece of music into your voice and muscle memory. I'll usually wait till the end of a rehearsal session before I really sing it through a few times.
If I'm working on a bigger piece, say a musical or an opera, I tend to work backwards. It was a trick that was shown to me by my voice teacher. Learn the big numbers first, starting with the last one. Then learn the recit or smaller numbers, again working backwards. When the time comes for performance you'll find that the stuff you've worked on and drilled longest is the stuff at the end of the show, when you'll also be the most tired. The newer songs that you may still need a little focus to get through will be addressed at the beginning of the performance.
2. Training for a show: This is really more like endurance training. You need to make sure you can actually sing through the entire show you have planned. So that's what I do; quick warm up, sing song after song, in order, with patter if its needed. Doing this can reveal a lot. Maybe you want to move some pieces around to better suit your voice. Are there a few pieces that really wake up your muscle memory? Maybe they should come earlier. Is there a big balls to the wall piece that you may be a little too tired to really sing well toward the end? Maybe that gets moved to the middle. It's just important that as you train to get through the pieces that you also focus on your technique; am I breathing well? Is it easy? Etc. If not, do some technical work outs, like some of the warm ups we discussed. If your voice can't handle the set every day, give yourself a break, but also maybe rethink the set. Make sure you have rest songs. Easy, but nice songs that give you a chance to take a breather while still performing.
3. Keeping in shape: This is a very person specific thing. For me this is about pushing my own abilities, looking at previous shows and reviewing any technical missteps. Training to avoid those same mistakes. Training to do things I've yet to be able to do. When I was younger I sang with a much higher larynx and a completely relaxed mask, so much of what I do is focus on the things I've had to correct and reinforce the technique I've learned. I'll usually sing pieces that are always problematic for one reason or another. Maybe drill some technique. Maybe even try some new techniques. I sing all the time, everyday. So for me singing is life and I barely do any specific trainings to keep in shape. I just sing until my toddler yells at me to "stop singing dadda," wait a little while and sing again. lol. I take a break while he naps..... or film one of my videos.
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Post by M57 on Jul 9, 2019 13:04:08 GMT -6
Part II: Rehearsals
1. Learning a piece: I tend to keep things easy when learning a new song. Mark through the song and try to drill the different sections until I think I really know how it goes. Only then will I really start singing it. The last thing you want to do is develop muscle memory that is incorrect. You want to make sure that you learn the piece of music before you start getting that piece of music into your voice and muscle memory. I'll usually wait till the end of a rehearsal session before I really sing it through a few times.
..or just be a good sight reader. I'm going to disagree with you here - or at least I'd like to suggest that your recommendation may not be right for everyone. Maybe we're talking apples and oranges, but in my days as a section leader/soloist, and in a choir with some very good readers, it was not uncommon (especially with some of the more pedestrian music) that we would read through it once or twice and expect it to be road ready. Certainly, as a section leader, marking wasn't an option, even if I'd never seen the piece before. My recommendation would be to start getting your muscle memory in gear as soon as possible. Marking has its own set of muscle memory issues. Segueing to different genres: When I'm writing a song, I almost never mark. I need to know instantly if the lyric/melody/phrasing works in context. I guess I've been brought up in a culture where marking is for saving your voice ..after you know what you're doing. Sure, if you are unsure of the notes and/or rhythms you don't want to go blasting in, but that's what pounding notes is for, right? If it's a tough passage, 90% of the time I'll sing it right the second time, 95% the third time, etc.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jul 9, 2019 14:48:10 GMT -6
M57, you are absolutely right. For some reason I was only thinking about learning a piece for memorization, which is what I do primarily. Even the last classical recital I did at Carnegie Hall we did staged scenes and I didn’t have a book with me. So my mind just went to that direction. If you can read well and have the benefit of being able to use the charts in performance it is a whole different set of rehearsal techniques.
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Post by M57 on Jul 9, 2019 15:42:00 GMT -6
>>For some reason I was only thinking about learning a piece for memorization, which is what I do primarily<< Yeah.. Memorization is a definitely different animal. (Thankfully) I rarely had to memorize, at least with the legit stuff. Reminds me of a bass I once sang with who was hired as a section leader/soloist. He had an absolutely beautiful, massive golden bass voice and lots of opera on his resume. He didn't last long because his reading skills were so poor. I remember asking him how he got all those gigs without good reading skills. He told me he would just listen to recordings and memorize. Makes sense in this day and age, but I remember being shocked nonetheless. Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting it is anywhere near the norm. Most of the operatic types I worked with read very well, and some of them could read the spots off the page. I just can't imagine making a career of it without good reading skills.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 9, 2019 16:39:47 GMT -6
Caruso didn't read either, but he did pretty well nonetheless!
Thanks guys, I'll read and reflect on all this... Chris
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Post by wiz on Jul 9, 2019 17:08:30 GMT -6
My warm up routine, usually consists of singing easy songs for the first 3 songs of the night, then I am good to go.
I do like recording my voice the day after a gig though.
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by Vincent R. on Jul 9, 2019 17:47:00 GMT -6
Caruso didn't read either, but he did pretty well nonetheless! Thanks guys, I'll read and reflect on all this... Chris Pavarotti, Corelli, Di Stefano, didn’t read well either. Domingo, Gigli, Bjorling, they did. It’s probably why they had more roles under their belts.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 9, 2019 18:38:05 GMT -6
My warm up routine, usually consists of singing easy songs for the first 3 songs of the night, then I am good to go. I do like recording my voice the day after a gig though. Cheers Wiz Wiz, you lucky Bast***D! I had a childhood friend like that-with a superb Lyric Tenor voice, I bet he could've rolled out of bed, and sang Bohemian Rhapsody. (then again that song wasn't written until we were about 16!) Whereas I could always roll out of bed, and sing a decent Kermit!
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Post by chessparov on Jul 9, 2019 18:45:29 GMT -6
Caruso didn't read either, but he did pretty well nonetheless! Thanks guys, I'll read and reflect on all this... Chris Pavarotti, Corelli, Di Stefano, didn’t read well either. Domingo, Gigli, Bjorling, they did. It’s probably why they had more roles under their belts. Great point! Chris
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Post by donr on Jul 9, 2019 22:50:37 GMT -6
I'm late to the thread. I started voice study in the '90's, after it was apparent I'd be doing more singing than I had with my band, and I'd suffered from laryngitis too frequently. I found a teacher who'd done bel canto as an artist and instructor in NYC, and taught me exercises I still do to tone and warm up. I realized that voice is essentially like any instrument as far as practice and warmup.
I don't have a particulary strong or extended natural voice, but my top range went up from a G to a B and I rarely have trouble singing now even with heavy touring.
I recommend instruction and study, I wish I'd done it much earlier in my professional career.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 9, 2019 23:25:14 GMT -6
I appreciate your modesty Don! You're a big part of what makes RGO... The most "musical talent per square inch" of any recording website out there, that I've ever seen. BTW just for fun-and they do tend to be easy on my voice... Sometimes a guilty pleasure of mine, is to include warming up with some Classic 60's/70's Bubblegum songs. ("Sugar, Sugar" or "Dizzy" anyone? ) Also there are mono versions of many familar songs on YouTube, so it's easy to put "one headphone on/one off", and sing along with them. Like what I'm doing right now, on "Soul Deep" (Boxtops)! Chris
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Post by chessparov on Aug 7, 2019 16:41:23 GMT -6
Been "going back to basics" on Harmony singing. So have been doing lots of practicing with The Everly's.
What I discovered by doing Don's lead singing, that this approximately the correct "vocal weight" for me-regarding higher keys.
Therefore, part of the benefit of close harmony, is finding that "safe zone" where you're not bringing too much weight up on top. I have a solid Low Baritone E, and that was influencing me to do this (too much weight). Chris
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Aug 7, 2019 21:49:53 GMT -6
My routine has always been get the acoustic out and sing through songs. Usually by the two or three I'm good to go. If there's a gap between gigs (which is certainly the case now - a month or so is the standard) I'll start playing through a set four or five nights before. I always forget it's just another group of muscles that has to be kept up.
If it's something like playing a local morning show at 8AM, then I'll get up at 5, run, and then run through a set. There's a youtube example of that from 20 years ago but I won't force that on anyone, ha ha.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Aug 7, 2019 22:00:48 GMT -6
I'm late to the thread. I started voice study in the '90's, after it was apparent I'd be doing more singing than I had with my band, and I'd suffered from laryngitis too frequently. I found a teacher who'd done bel canto as an artist and instructor in NYC, and taught me exercises I still do to tone and warm up. I realized that voice is essentially like any instrument as far as practice and warmup. I don't have a particulary strong or extended natural voice, but my top range went up from a G to a B and I rarely have trouble singing now even with heavy touring. I recommend instruction and study, I wish I'd done it much earlier in my professional career. Way too modest, sir. Your voice is/was an instrument in the collection of things that made the songs! But, quoted and replied because this is a big key: vocal lessons. Playing 120 shows a year in the late 90's with my band I ran in to this issue fast. Ended up finding someone at the University of Oklahoma and took three or four lessons when we were up there playing. Totally changed my approach and technique and the tools the instructor gave me fixed the issues and gave me a lot of vocal strength. Also helped to have a reference to a doctor here in Dallas, TX at the time that had treated Mick and Bono as well as local band Tripping Daisy's singer. Went to him and found I had a couple of nodes, but they weren't severe (I forget the term, but "hardened"). He recommended a coach. Anyway, rambling, but great suggestion!
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Post by chessparov on Aug 15, 2019 18:31:32 GMT -6
Just curious... Are any of you guys using falsetto and/or falsettone, in your training? Thanks, Chris
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Post by M57 on Aug 16, 2019 3:53:47 GMT -6
Just curious... Are any of you guys using falsetto and/or falsettone, in your training? Thanks, Chris I would defer to Vincent as the Bel Canto authority around here, but I can speak to the few vocal lessons I had with Bel Canto style teachers, where among other things, the blending of the head (falsetto) and the chest voice was part of the training. These registers involve two different sets of muscles, placement, etc, so they both had me doing exercises that involved singing from head (falsetto) to chest - back and forth and through the passaggio. Certainly, most of the training was focused on the chest voice, but those blending exercises were super helpful, and an important part of how I approach my singing ..because I use my falsetto all the time.
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 16, 2019 6:00:43 GMT -6
M57 thanks for the vote of confidence, but as you said much of bel canto training seeks to seemlessly blend the falsetto register and the chest register into what we call head voice. Falsetto actually sounds different. While I know how to use falsetto and feature it on my crossover track “Spanish Eyes” on my first album, I’ve never been much of a falsettist. I used to have a bit of a range with it and sang a Frankie Valli-esc ending to the Teen Angel’s “Beauty School Dropout” while doing Grease in High School. As my voice darkened my falsetto range diminished quite a bit. What I built instead was a great mix voice and the ability to shift from chest voice to head voice seemlessly. I do that at the end of my “I te Vurria Vasa” video, which is only a high G or Ab, but I’ve been known to do it on Bb and from time to time on high C.
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Post by M57 on Aug 16, 2019 7:15:10 GMT -6
M57 thanks for the vote of confidence, but as you said much of bel canto training seeks to seamlessly blend the falsetto register and the chest register into what we call head voice. Falsetto actually sounds different. I'm not at all an academic authority on the subject ..and I don't doubt that what Vincent says is true (and this may be splitting hairs), but in my personal experience as a singer head and falsetto are a bit more interchangeable. Maybe that's where the "seemless" part comes in. I'm not a counter-tenor by any means, but as a baritone who uses his falsetto a lot, I'm hyper-aware of where my break is, and how to manage it - either by making it a clear delineation or by blending - and more preferably the latter. I'm not "the" music teacher at my K-8 school, but I end up assisting and sometimes directing choruses and I'm constantly singing in their registers - and find myself singing through my passaggio and going up to D's and E's all the time - where things are clearly falsetto. So for what I do, the ability to blend is critical. And all this conveniently transfers to my singer/songwriter self, where us "barely-tones" don't get a fair shake in a lot of pop music genres. I don't necessarily like to have to use my head voice, but it seems I need to all the time. Here are two examples with links. In " Don't Give Up The Moon", I jump into falsetto and do a little back and forth-ing in the chorus. This one was particularly tricky for me to sing. The range of the melody puts it square in my passaggio - and to be honest, I don't think I did a great job of managing it, but it is what it is. To illustrate.. In the second line of the first verse I'm doing my best to seamlessly work from chest to falsetto and back, but if you listen closely you can hear the delineation. "When you give your dreams a chance and let the future dance" In " The End Of The Skyline" I have to do it in the chorus (0:48) to maintain a sense of urgency. I think the majority of male pop singers use their head voice when necessary and avoid their falsetto - but that's because most of them are tenors and they simply don't need those super high notes. I have to use my falsetto to sing those same notes. I'm jealous. Call me a hater if you must.
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 16, 2019 8:04:32 GMT -6
Again, with the preface that I am by no means a falsettist, both falsetto and head voice are produced in similar range of the voice, but have different qualities. The difference is what the vocal folds do with each. Male head voice will start to sound like female head voice when produced properly. Falsetto has a “false” sound to it. Think The Bee Gees or Frankie Valli. It only really matters which you do if you’re singing classically. Another thing to note is that the larynx stays high while singing in falsetto, but can stay neutral or lower while singing in head voice.
Funny enough, high voiced male falsettists and counter tenors tend to sit in the lyric baritone or baritenor range in their natural voice. My brother is a countertenor voice type, but sings primarily R&B. His is a gorgeous and natural sounding head voice. It always freaks people out when he takes on a Whitney Houston or Mariah Carey signature song and performs them in the original keys.
Falsetto
Head voice
Trying to give examples of pop music above as opposed to classical.
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