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Post by chessparov on Jul 5, 2019 3:17:55 GMT -6
Since there's such a high density of singers here at RGO... I thought a thread like this, might be of benefit.
For example, I've already been using a vocal microphone into either a mixer, or my computer, "singing along"
with various recordings (primarily YouTube, or CD's) ala Beatles/whomever-While listening on headphones.
We could call that the "Putt" as those vocals are on a moderate volume. I have around 1500 songs stored on my old PC and another 500+ "liked videos" on my Chromebook-so I've got quite a variety at 2K+ songs.
I also have various ways of doing the above. Approaches include singing to mono recordings sometimes too.
But... Like the thread I started a while back, there was a noticeable quality gap, in my self recordings vs. onstage.
Thankfully, it was the live performances, that were better. Much better than the other way round-but still frustrating!
Fortunately, when learning more about one of my favorite actors, Richard Harris recently... I was intrigued to find out he would sometimes practice Shakespeare, by going to a deserted beach and yelling out his lines! (surely not so loud as to hurt his voice though). Eureka! I felt I was on to something.
So I downloaded the "Voice Memos" app on my cell phone, headed over to my workplace (afterhours), and sang out!
It's located in an Industrial Park area, so it's fine to be very loud, without disturbing anyone.
The large vinyl tiled main area is around 1200 square feet. Despite the lesser fidelity of a cell phone recording, you could
tell the performance was (much) much better, than the "singing" I posted (on the same songs) on that thread I mentioned.
The "sweet spot" was just being a little "over the top", but still in just enough control of the song.
Honestly, setting up all the recording equipment from scratch, made staying in the "Singing Zone" much more difficult.
I think of this kind of high volume singing, as like "the Drive" compared to the more circumspect "Putt" method above.
FWIW we have the same kind of training in chess, studying positions with a small amount of pieces AKA "endgames" would be the "Putt". Studying positions that are more complex, particularly those known as having a "combination" (of move sequences), would be the "Drive".
This last part (high volume singing) is kind of new for me still to do alone, and is a work in progress. But I did hear a tangible singing improvement, within the last couple of weeks. If/when my work eases up, I'll try to post an example-even though you'll definitely hear some audible "room drawbacks".
In the end, all this leads me to recording vocals in a "real studio", with a real AE-for anything important!
Chris
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Post by M57 on Jul 5, 2019 4:18:08 GMT -6
Hah.. Drive and putt. I didn't put the two together and realize it was a golf analogy until after I read the entire thread. Regardless, I still don't understand what you do. Do you go to this work place of your (presumably after hours) and sing real loud because you need the sound of the space ..or the privacy? Do you sing along with these recordings you talk of ..and record yourself doing it? To what end? No scales, no exercises? ..just sing along with recordings? Is it important which recordings you sing with, any attention given to order etc.?
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Post by Ward on Jul 5, 2019 7:03:26 GMT -6
My voice sounds terrible cold. But an hour total of going through the full Lindebaum ritual and then some Belle Canto exercises and it comes alive, like back in my 20s.
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Post by swafford on Jul 5, 2019 7:53:49 GMT -6
I do allergy meds a few hours before, then low end guttural sounds for 8-10 minutes to warm up, then fingerpick guitar and sing in the meat of my register.
Then a lemon tek 500mg shroom shot and a big hit off the vape. Then some outside activity and some ice water.
Maybe a nap.
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Post by mjheck on Jul 5, 2019 8:03:38 GMT -6
Interesting - I am currently reading a series of books on athletes and what is genetically innate and what can be improved. One of the books (The MVP Machine) documents a change in how pitchers are trained. One of the big revelations was encouraging "long toss" for pitchers - where they essentially throw as far as they can for part of their training (this was formerly lauded as stupid). Turns out there are some serious advantages to putting your body through its full range of capacity - in pitching it resulted in more velocity and, somewhat counterintuitively, less injuries.
A different author (David Epstein) cites new research that illustrates over specialization from an early age also results in more injuries, less ability to dynamically problem solve, early burnout, etc. Athletes that continued to play different sports for longer ultimately peaked higher.
What you are describing vocally sounds similar to letting it rip in long toss. While we tend to focus on the emotional aspect of perfomance, I wouldn't doubt that there is additional mental engagement and physiological benefits to that approach.
Thank you for the thought provoking question.
MJH
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Post by sean on Jul 5, 2019 8:52:43 GMT -6
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Post by chessparov on Jul 5, 2019 9:34:17 GMT -6
MJ, yes the "long toss" concept seems to have been the missing link, in supplemental vocal training for me.
I'll explain the "Putt" method better, soon after work today.
Thanks guys, for all your responses.
Chris
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Post by stormymondays on Jul 5, 2019 9:47:34 GMT -6
I will put in a recommendation for Complete Vocal Technique. It’s the only scientific method of singing that currently exists. I know it’s a bold claim but it’s the truth. And it covers all styles from classical to death metal.
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Post by ragan on Jul 5, 2019 10:12:41 GMT -6
I will put in a recommendation for Complete Vocal Technique. It’s the only scientific method of singing that currently exists. I know it’s a bold claim but it’s the truth. And it covers all styles from classical to death metal. How are you using “scientific” here? Like, the book has blind, peer-reviewed clinical research behind it? |
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Post by stormymondays on Jul 5, 2019 10:18:24 GMT -6
I will put in a recommendation for Complete Vocal Technique. It’s the only scientific method of singing that currently exists. I know it’s a bold claim but it’s the truth. And it covers all styles from classical to death metal. How are you using “scientific” here? Like, the book has blind, peer-reviewed clinical research behind it? Yes, absolutely. Not only that - they do their own research, on actual singers, with actual larynx cameras: cvtresearch.com/welcome/They've been training singers for 14 years in their own facility and applying the scientific method (from empirical evidence to hypothesis and experiments to prove/disprove theories) to see what actually happens when you sing. Here's the site for the Complete Vocal Institute: completevocal.institute |
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Post by Vincent R. on Jul 5, 2019 11:33:28 GMT -6
How are you using “scientific” here? Like, the book has blind, peer-reviewed clinical research behind it? Yes, absolutely. Not only that - they do their own research, on actual singers, with actual larynx cameras: cvtresearch.com/welcome/They've been training singers for 14 years in their own facility and applying the scientific method (from empirical evidence to hypothesis and experiments to prove/disprove theories) to see what actually happens when you sing. Here's the site for the Complete Vocal Institute: completevocal.instituteTook a brief look at the classical stuff on this site and I completely understand why this is helping a lot of people, especially non classical singers. I also know what the gentleman is doing incorrectly in his classical approach and somethings missing in the descriptions tells me a lot. They don’t talk about the lower larynx at all and you can hear in his vocal production that the larynx is more neutral. When end I have a few minute to write my dissertation on technique and warms ups I will. It’s going to take me a few. |
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Post by stormymondays on Jul 5, 2019 11:39:52 GMT -6
Took a brief look at the classical stuff on this site and I completely understand why this is helping a lot of people, especially non classical singers. I also know what the gentleman is doing incorrectly in his classical approach and somethings missing in the descriptions tells me a lot. They don’t talk about the lower larynx at all and you can hear in his vocal production that the larynx is more neutral. When end I have a few minute to write my dissertation on technique and warms ups I will. It’s going to take me a few. You've actually hit on a key point of CVT. They are completely style agnostic. In their view, the only incorrect technique is that which damages the voice. Anything else, no matter how "bad" it might sound to our ears, is fair game. They also claim (and prove) that you can sing ANY sound in a safe and healthy way, even those which sound like you are about to cough blood! So, what you are considering incorrect for a classical approach would be a stylistic choice that falls outside the classical aesthetic. Classical singing has very strict aesthetic rules, and in my experience classical teachers label anything that doesn't fit the "bel canto" sound as damaging for the vocal cords. It would be the same as me saying that someone has incorrect blues guitar technique because they do right-hand tapping a la Van Halen  That said, I'm very interested in your post about your routines, etc. EDIT: larynx position is a color choice. You can make any sound with elevated larynx for a lighter sound, or lower larynx for a darker sound. Of course, the larynx needs to rise for higher notes, but even then there's a stylistic voice color choice. |
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Post by Vincent R. on Jul 5, 2019 11:56:20 GMT -6
Yeah, I was talking about a classical standpoint and something they demonstrated on the site. There is a reason what they are teaching works. Again, I’ll explain when I have some time. Larynx position is only a color choice in non operatic singing. In operatic singing it is most certainly not a color choice, it is an essential part of producing sound at 100+ dB. Unfortunately it is often taught incorrectly....
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Post by chessparov on Jul 5, 2019 12:41:20 GMT -6
Although already everyone on this thread (well I'm a "work in progress" in comparison), is a strong singer...
I also really appreciate this input from Vincent. I think it's safe to say, he has the highest level technique of any of us here.
Many thanks Vincent, for adding your expert perspective and reality check on all this.
Chris
P.S. I have some conventional style warm-ups/excercises too-which I need to more of!
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Post by chessparov on Jul 5, 2019 12:53:39 GMT -6
OK as far as that "Putt training".
The basic idea is to to add some moderate reverb to my voice, and blend it with pre-recorded material-singing "live".
Set-ups like...
1) microphone>mixer with reverb. Recorded output (ex. YouTube music video) fed into 1/4" mixer inputs. Then balance things accordingly.
Listen through mixer headphone jack.
2) microphone>hardware reverb>interface input. (ex. have Youtube video playing at the same time through interface).
Listen through interface headphone jack.
3) Play a mono version of the pre-recorded song, listen through headphones to compare your vocal, to the other side.
On all these examples, you are singing "live" and listening to the recorded signal at the same time. Actual recording is optional.
I hope this helps explain this.
Chris
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Post by chessparov on Jul 5, 2019 13:09:18 GMT -6
I stumbled into a Stanford University area used bookstore many years ago, an stumbled into one of the greatest singing books ever written...
"The Science and Sensations of Vocal Tone", by E.F. Herbert-Caesari. Of course there are many other fine books, but IMHO this one's
absolutely brilliant! It was quite rare, and was out of print for many years. Not sure how accessible it is nowadays.
Also there are some old classic singing books, available for free, via PDF online.
I like "Secrets of Singing"/Jeffrey Allen, for a more contemporary book/CD and also David Jones' "Introductory Lesson" double CD too.
Chris
P.S. With all due respect-if anyone "into" Speech Level Singing, my Vocal Master, Dr. Pelayo counseled me that
it was NOT a complete technique, despite the marketing. His Operatic technique was based on Lamperti.
And living/being taught in the home of the greatest Baritone ever-Tito Ruffo. When Ruffo was under House Arrest,
by Mussolini himself. Dr. Pelayo was also close friends with Gigli, who also coached him. Imagine that!
He had won a singing contest, sponsored by Gigli, when he was 16 years old (around 1934), that's how they met.
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Post by teejay on Jul 5, 2019 14:21:52 GMT -6
Chris, I'm not the trained singer Vincent is, so I defer to his expertise when he shares it. However, I have sung live for about 35 years (solo, choirs, vocal bands), and recorded for 16 years. I don't play instruments, so I am totally focused on vocals. Several folks here have hit upon things I've experienced as being good considerations. Personally, I've found that similar to the approach for any athletic event, you have to do some dynamic stretching before you go full-out. For me that consists of a good warm-up period (humming/singing some easy scales, lip rolls, etc.). Have to have a good warm-down as well. The Brett Manning Singing Success series has worked well for me as a general framework, including warm-ups, expanding my range/head voice, and learning to execute various styles. I'm not promoting this. Just letting you know it has worked for me.
Getting back to your original question, I have found that practicing with tracks and using my mics and headphones allows me to really zero in on hearing tone, inflection, breathing, etc. All the subtleties and nuances of being truly artistic and in control, which make both your recordings and live singing stand out from most "general singers". And yes, even better if you can record some of it and listen back with a critical ear. Singing with some verb in your headphones is nice and can encourage some creativity and confidence, just have to be cautious that it does not mask areas needing improvement. The phrase I've come up with is "Reverb covers a multitude of sins". (My other phrase is "Vocal Fry is like salt. A little seasons well, too much ruins the stew.")
It's fun to learn new songs and sing along with YouTube. But for really honing in on what you sound like and improving your artistry, I'd avoid tracks with vocals. You need to be able to hear everything about your own voice.
Best pre-singing drink: Room temperature Apple Juice to clear out the junk. Best recovery drink: Hot honey-lemon water/tea to soothe the pipes. No caffeine or dairy products the day you're singing (even better if you can avoid them the day before as well).
That's all I've got. ;-)
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Post by chessparov on Jul 5, 2019 15:10:56 GMT -6
Excellent post Todd. Regarding the reverb, if I'm "unchecked", being a total reverb-aholic... You're right regarding that concern. I practice also "dry" in those methods, I posted above. But to paraphrase what John Lennon said to George Martin, I prefer "to put some ketchup on it!"  Old Opera technique. Eat green apples before singing. Water will dry out your voice for 45+ minutes. The green apples work great. Effectively a timed release hydration, for the throat. BTW the "The Lamperti School" was dead set against hummimg! But he did say "singing is humming with the mouth open"! This may have been somewhat tongue in cheek.  He believed humming with the mouth closed, the voice. I think we have to keep in mind his training was aimed at Grand Opera and Classical Recital, in this. The great Baritone/instructor Manuel Garcia, didn't have his students hum either, according to his daughter. Garcia also was credited with inventing the laryngoscope. Maestro Pelayo used a more modern one, to check my larynx twice BTW. He accurately predicted how my voice would evolve, over a long period of time, from that device. I was in my early 30's then. Like Garcia, Pelayo has made it past 100! Every now and then I check the Internet, to see if he's still around. 101 last February. Chris |
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Post by Vincent R. on Jul 6, 2019 10:20:37 GMT -6
Part 1 Warm Ups:
It's usually a good idea to begin warm ups in your middle voice. Kind of like stretching a bit before a work out. I'll use my voice as an example. My voice resonates from a Low C3 to a high Eb5. I can croon lower and sing in pure falsetto a little higher. Generally my shows consist of a low D3 (Low note of Nessun Dorma) to my high C5 (Be My Love, O Soave Fanciulla, etc). knowing that I usually start with scales on a low F3 and go up to a high A5 or Ab5 if the voice really needs to warm up. I use scales. There is a reason most people use these in there warm up. I will usually use up Do Mi So Do and then down So Mi Do. I may also add a cadenza at the end, but its not necessary. I will generally start with closed vowels; the italian "i" vowel or "ee." After I reach the high A5 I got back down the scale on an italian "u" vowel or "oo" which is also a closed sound. I'll usually go down until my E3 and go back up on an "o" or "oh" sound up to my Bb5 and back down on an "e" or "eh" to my D or Db3, then I'll change to the "a" or "ah" and go down till I can't resonate any more and up to my D or Eb5 depending on how I'm feeling.
Then I'll do some lightness and agility exercises, again as a scale, but in the form or a cadenza or riff. Again I stay in my middle voice and move up and down gradually as I go usually using mi, moo, meh, muh, and mah sounds. With this I usually do not go to the upper top or lower bottom if my range.
I will sometimes do some placement exercises. Using the "ng" sound to place my voice in the front of my masque. There is a lot of misunderstanding about masque technicique, but it can be applied to many styles of singing. It's what is being taught at CVT and can really be applied to any style.
Then I do the crazy appoggio breathing exercises. Depends how much I feel I need it that day. Breathing is usually where people fail. 90% of the artists who's voices give out on them over time do so because of a lack of understanding on how to breath while singing. This sort of breathing is the reason why Pavarotti could sing 9 high Cs in a row with a voice twice the size of Florez and even why R&B singers like Patti LaBelle could belt out ridiculously high and long phrases.
If this is my classical routine then I need to focus on covering or cuperta (spinning) the voice at my primo passagio. The passagio or passage is where the voice goes from predominantly chest voice to predominantly head voice. Depending on the style your singing in you will either approach this as a mix voice/open sound (pop/rock) or a covered/spinning sound (classical and sometimes R&B). In classical we will sing the correct vowel until our passagio and then modify it with the "ee" or "oo" sound as we go up. It gives the full sound you hear in operatic singing, but is really a mix of head voice and chest. |
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Post by chessparov on Jul 6, 2019 13:06:48 GMT -6
Awesome post, or should I say Bravo! Now just add the requisite viewing of Bugs Bunny as "Leopold", conducting the orchestra and the Tenor! Chris |
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Post by M57 on Jul 6, 2019 13:49:21 GMT -6
Thanks Vincent. I'm waiting for part two! But I do have a few questions. I notice that you use consonants and sounds like M and ng, that tend to direct the sound to the mask. For the most part, I warm up very similarly - specifically in terms of starting in the mid-range and working up and down and expanding with cadenzas etc, but my warm up consonants tend to be more diverse. In fact, I'd say I work away from the nasals, perhaps to ensure that I'm singing "on the breathe," but also because for a lot of the more folk oriented music I sing these days, I'm purposely avoiding a covered, hi-internal pressure, highly supported sound ..if that makes any sense. My early music singing days are over, but I'm also doing what I can to keep vibrato in check. These days, the second I kick in with power, I have to really pay attention or I cover and the vibrato kicks in. It's an unwanted by-product of my days as a soloist in an old school church choir where we sang a lot of turn of the century anthems and stuff like the standard requiems from Mozart to Rutter, etc. So I know you sing in a number of different genres and I wonder if you find the transition to the lighter stuff difficult and/or how you deal with it.
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Post by hio on Jul 7, 2019 3:41:12 GMT -6
I was classically trained and vocally trained but even though warm up exercises were taught to me I never warm up.
Years ago I started to have problems with both my arms and started warming up, but ended up having to get cortisone shots right into my arms above the wrists and then one day I decided to lower the string guage of both my electric and acoustic guitars one guage respectively.
Since then I have had no more problems and no more shots, and thankfully because that was expensive sh$t.
Vocally and instrumentally I am usually warmed up by the second song or after a sound check; different strokes for different folks I guess.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jul 7, 2019 9:06:25 GMT -6
Thanks Vincent. I'm waiting for part two! But I do have a few questions. I notice that you use consonants and sounds like M and ng, that tend to direct the sound to the mask. For the most part, I warm up very similarly - specifically in terms of starting in the mid-range and working up and down and expanding with cadenzas etc, but my warm up consonants tend to be more diverse. In fact, I'd say I work away from the nasals, perhaps to ensure that I'm singing "on the breathe," but also because for a lot of the more folk oriented music I sing these days, I'm purposely avoiding a covered, hi-internal pressure, highly supported sound ..if that makes any sense. My early music singing days are over, but I'm also doing what I can to keep vibrato in check. These days, the second I kick in with power, I have to really pay attention or I cover and the vibrato kicks in. It's an unwanted by-product of my days as a soloist in an old school church choir where we sang a lot of turn of the century anthems and stuff like the standard requiems from Mozart to Rutter, etc. So I know you sing in a number of different genres and I wonder if you find the transition to the lighter stuff difficult and/or how you deal with it. That's a great question. These days my concerts are predominantly legit styled music, whether they are old Italian and Neapolitan classics, Opera, or Legit musical theater. Even when crooning you can hear that I generally keep a lower larynx. This especially helps switching back and forth. It means I'm adding a little air to the sound, but not changing the whole mechanism between each song. If I do a show with a lot of pop music I usually start with the pop music and pick a song I know will kick my muscle memory into gear to transition into legit singing. Sometimes I'll throw a crooner piece in between to help with the transition, but I can usually sing "Chitarra Romana" or "La Donna e' Mobile" and then be ready for the rest of the show.
Sounds like you and I have the opposite problem. You're trying to keep things less nasal and I'm trying to keep things less throaty, but the exercises are the same. Since you understand how the cover works it's important to also understand how a mix belt works. The big thing with the transition into a proper mix belt is the understanding of the position or the larynx. When you listen to a singer like Steve Perry (forgive me, I talk tenors) you can hear that as he goes up the larynx actually raises a bit. It's a different sensation than the cover where the larynx lowers. My friend Dominic Scaglione, Jr. who played Frankie Valli in Jersery Boys on Broadway had a conversation with me about how he had to keep the larynx high as he transitioned into the well known falsetto sound that Frankie used. It was so drastic that he would have to warm himself down after each show to keep his voice healthy and be ready for the next nights performance, doing exercises that would help relax his larynx. I tend to keep my larynx neutral when I sing pop up there, which is why I get more of that Groban sound and not that sort of rock sound. This keeps things a little easier and more legit sounding, without sounding like Puccini.
When you're covering you tend to sing Ah, Ah, and then transition to more of an Uh sound through and over the passagio. In mix belt you want to stay on the Ah but let more head tone in to compensate. The Uh automatically buts head tone into the sound, but a lowered larynx keeps it heavily connected to the chest. Keeping the sound on an Ah, but letting it sound more heady will prevent that big operatic sound. It's important to support over the break, but keep the breathy steady as well.
Not sure if that explanation helps at all, but I'm here if you have additional questions. Maybe I'll record some samples.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jul 7, 2019 9:07:18 GMT -6
Awesome post, or should I say Bravo! Now just add the requisite viewing of Bugs Bunny as "Leopold", conducting the orchestra and the Tenor! Chris YES! Although, my favorite was "Willie the Whale Who Wanted to Sing at the Met," which starred Nelson Eddy. |
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Post by chessparov on Jul 7, 2019 10:39:13 GMT -6
Thanks Vincent! I'm pet sitting 3 dogs, 1 young cat (as in feline), and an 8 week old kitten. (rescued from a running car-in the engine compartment!)-this afternoon. Will check out Willie the Whale then.
Thanks again guys, for keeping things on such a high brow level. Especially considering my "Low-en-brow" humor!
Having Vincent help us, is kinda like a coaching visit from Kasparov, at our Chess Center! On the count of three. "When the lights go down in the Sit-tay"...:-)
Chris
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He believed humming with the mouth closed, the voice.