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Post by theshea on Jul 4, 2019 7:37:40 GMT -6
so that's the next step i wanna take in my mixing - up my game in the kick & bass department! mostly i record a live kickdrum and a DI bassguitar, almost never i mike a bassamp. comes mixing time i "theoretically" know it "all": not having the kick and the bass masking each other, keeping them out of each others way frequency wise. but it's not always that easy ... they often occupy the same frequency range. the bassguitar is all over the kick and carving out the kicks frequency in the bass isn't always the best sounding solution. having the bassguitar in the sidechain of a kicks compressor (3-5db GR - or do you use more?) helps a bit. what would you say, was YOUR eye opener for kick & bass relationship? i guess tuning the kick better could help as well ...
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Post by svart on Jul 4, 2019 8:35:38 GMT -6
My eye opener was that it's not just as easy as a little EQ and some compression with sidechaining.
Let me ask the first question and we'll go from there..
Do you tune your kick drum to a note? If not, why not?
A lot of drummers don't, and as a drummer I think that's self-defeating.
Lots of folks fiddle with trying to get a relationship between kick and bass but lack a real tonal relationship. An improperly tuned kick won't have a good resonant peak and will just have harmonics all over the lower frequency range and sound mushy and flat, making it harder to get bass to sit with it.
A well tuned kick will have a faster attack, more defined harmonics, and a sharp peak at the tuned frequency. You can then accentuate the fundamental peak, and some of the higher attack harmonics and get rid of a lot of the others and work the bass around the rest.
The other eye opener is that the bass guitar is defined by it's mid-range, not by it's low frequencies. There is usually a lot less lows present than you might think, and the impression of low frequencies is due to the "missing fundamental" effect.
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Post by matt@IAA on Jul 4, 2019 9:22:26 GMT -6
+1 for bass mids. As a bass player I always cringe when I see bassists who want to EQ the bass smiley face. Bass does it best work in the mids.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jul 4, 2019 10:24:24 GMT -6
Yeah it usually works best to get the bass mids to work right and let the kick fill out the low end of the bass. When done right it works amazingly well.
I really like to think if bass a lot of times as a slightly lower guitar or an extension of a guitar. Now before you say "well duh!" Really think about that. As soon as you stop thinking if bass as the low end insturment but a low mid/mid insturment. It changes how you listen to it and treat it.
But super agree on tuning the kick. It's just like the other drums. Tuning drums is super important.
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Post by mulmany on Jul 4, 2019 12:11:28 GMT -6
My eye opener was that it's not just as easy as a little EQ and some compression with sidechaining. Let me ask the first question and we'll go from there.. Do you tune your kick drum to a note? If not, why not? A lot of drummers don't, and as a drummer I think that's self-defeating. Lots of folks fiddle with trying to get a relationship between kick and bass but lack a real tonal relationship. An improperly tuned kick won't have a good resonant peak and will just have harmonics all over the lower frequency range and sound mushy and flat, making it harder to get bass to sit with it. A well tuned kick will have a faster attack, more defined harmonics, and a sharp peak at the tuned frequency. You can then accentuate the fundamental peak, and some of the higher attack harmonics and get rid of a lot of the others and work the bass around the rest. The other eye opener is that the bass guitar is defined by it's mid-range, not by it's low frequencies. There is usually a lot less lows present than you might think, and the impression of low frequencies is due to the "missing fundamental" effect. I have heard that tuning your kick and snare to G is the best all round note. Any thoughts on particular note tuning? Are you tuning to the key of the song?
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Post by svart on Jul 4, 2019 12:31:16 GMT -6
My eye opener was that it's not just as easy as a little EQ and some compression with sidechaining. Let me ask the first question and we'll go from there.. Do you tune your kick drum to a note? If not, why not? A lot of drummers don't, and as a drummer I think that's self-defeating. Lots of folks fiddle with trying to get a relationship between kick and bass but lack a real tonal relationship. An improperly tuned kick won't have a good resonant peak and will just have harmonics all over the lower frequency range and sound mushy and flat, making it harder to get bass to sit with it. A well tuned kick will have a faster attack, more defined harmonics, and a sharp peak at the tuned frequency. You can then accentuate the fundamental peak, and some of the higher attack harmonics and get rid of a lot of the others and work the bass around the rest. The other eye opener is that the bass guitar is defined by it's mid-range, not by it's low frequencies. There is usually a lot less lows present than you might think, and the impression of low frequencies is due to the "missing fundamental" effect. I have heard that tuning your kick and snare to G is the best all round note. Any thoughts on particular note tuning? Are you tuning to the key of the song? I think it's all about the size of the drum and head choice. When you get the right combination, you'll hear the "bloom" where the drum just seems to sing and get louder. For my 22" x 20" kick it's around D1# to F1. I believe most drums can take about 3 notes of tuning range with some taking more and some less. G seems really high for a standard kick drum size but it's right in the middle of where I like my 14"x 5-7" snares. G might work for an 18" kick or something. I don't tend to tune for the song.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jul 4, 2019 12:46:52 GMT -6
My approach is to get Kick, snare, and bass all balanced (eq, compression, etc) together. I think of them as one instrument. I can't eq the bass in solo, or kick, or snare etc. I need to hear what is being effected in the other instruments when I make a change. Then I can bring in the rest of the drums, guitars etc and adjust accordingly.
Side-chaining a dymanic eq on the bass is great way to add more definition to the kick.
+ 1 to everything everyone has said about mid range on bass
Also, super important, you have to decide what instrument is going to occupy/dominate the lowest register. All the sub stuff (like 50hz and below) can make a mess of things so decide if thats coming from the bass or kick. There's no wrong answer, its very depended on song, genre, and your aesthetic.
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Post by bigbone on Jul 4, 2019 13:28:21 GMT -6
You never tune a drums, you tension the drumhead. after 30 sec of playing your note will be out of tune.
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Post by svart on Jul 4, 2019 14:21:21 GMT -6
You never tune a drums, you tension the drumhead. after 30 sec of playing your note will be out of tune. So since you tension a guitar string to tune it, does it also go out of tune in 30 seconds?
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Post by Tbone81 on Jul 4, 2019 14:44:03 GMT -6
You never tune a drums, you tension the drumhead. after 30 sec of playing your note will be out of tune. You just need to allow time for the heads to be broken in, and to acclimate to the temp/humidity of the room. Just like strings on a guitar.
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Post by bigbone on Jul 4, 2019 15:09:04 GMT -6
You never tune a drums, you tension the drumhead. after 30 sec of playing your note will be out of tune. You just need to allow time for the heads to be broken in, and to acclimate to the temp/humidity of the room. Just like strings on a guitar. Not realy.even if you stretch and broke in the head it will not keep the note.
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Post by bigbone on Jul 4, 2019 15:10:30 GMT -6
You never tune a drums, you tension the drumhead. after 30 sec of playing your note will be out of tune. So since you tension a guitar string to tune it, does it also go out of tune in 30 seconds? It isn't the same ,you can't compare a string to a drums heads. the surface isn't the same.
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Post by theshea on Jul 4, 2019 15:16:47 GMT -6
if i do more mids on bassguitar, doesn't that clash with electric guitar?
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Post by stormymondays on Jul 4, 2019 15:23:49 GMT -6
Bass “growl” and distortion help tremendously. For me, most of the time the bass needs to sound ugly when soloed.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jul 4, 2019 15:35:58 GMT -6
if i do more mids on bassguitar, doesn't that clash with electric guitar? yes a bit. This can be genre dependant but again, if you think of the bass as really just extending the guitars it works itself out. Like think about how a lot of music is written. In a big band there are 4 trumpets usually. The 4th trumpt is often a full octave below the lead player, or lower. You likely will rarely hear the 4th trumpet when everyone is really playing, however, if you take that out, the lead player suddenly sounds thin and not a good. Same goes for vocals. When you layer lots of vocals, to get the higher stuff to sound better you need a really good lower part, often an octave below. It doesn't have to be loud but without it doesn't sound the same. Bass and guitar work the same way. take Rage Against the Machine. If you really listen the Bass is most of the epic tone of the guitars. Not that the guitars sound bad because by themselves they sound great. Listen to Maggie's Farm, when they get to the bridge you can really hear this. The lick starts with guitar and then when the bass comes in it just gets massive. But doesn't really feel like "bass". If that makes sense... You can really hear how they compliment each other, of course the PCM42 Andy Wallace trick is going on too so the guitar is wide and the bass is right up the middle.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jul 4, 2019 15:37:09 GMT -6
You just need to allow time for the heads to be broken in, and to acclimate to the temp/humidity of the room. Just like strings on a guitar. Not realy.even if you stretch and broke in the head it will not keep the note. So you're basically saying that a drum head won't keep its pitch for any meaningful length of time (not even length of a song), and that its pitch is going to vary constantly? Am I understanding you correctly? Because my experience is different.
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Post by bigbone on Jul 4, 2019 15:43:52 GMT -6
Not realy.even if you stretch and broke in the head it will not keep the note. So you're basically saying that a drum head won't keep its pitch for any meaningful length of time (not even length of a song), and that its pitch is going to vary constantly? Am I understanding you correctly? Because my experience is different. Yes that's my 30 years + of studio playing and touring experience.
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Post by nudwig on Jul 4, 2019 15:59:07 GMT -6
+1 for bass mids. As a bass player I always cringe when I see bassists who want to EQ the bass smiley face. Bass does it best work in the mids. +2 on mids again. 1, 2, or 3 (out of 5 on the newer ones, 1 or 2 on the old ones) boosted on an Ampeg SVT is where it's at for me. In mixing I try to be mindful of that 650 to 1k range, also helps it pop out on laptop speakers.
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Post by nick8801 on Jul 4, 2019 17:17:57 GMT -6
I recently picked up some of the izoptope plugins and I find that their exciters are incredible on basses and kicks. They can be split into multiple bands and there are several options for the type of harmonics used to excite the signal. Really killer stuff. Also in regards to tuning, my 70’s Ludwig holds its tuning for maybe a song. A drummer friend of mine recommended locking lugs. Haven’t tried them yet but they apparently work for holding the heads in place. I also find that multiple mics can help the situation. That way you can capture attack and sustain better. If that’s not an option, the izotope transient designers are also really killer for balancing kick and bass. They are also able to be split into bands. Also, some masking is ok. It’s natural for some masking to take place as long as you’re not completely canceling out part of the frequency spectrum.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 4, 2019 20:12:08 GMT -6
so that's the next step i wanna take in my mixing - up my game in the kick & bass department! mostly i record a live kickdrum and a DI bassguitar, almost never i mike a bassamp. comes mixing time i "theoretically" know it "all": not having the kick and the bass masking each other, keeping them out of each others way frequency wise. but it's not always that easy ... they often occupy the same frequency range. the bassguitar is all over the kick and carving out the kicks frequency in the bass isn't always the best sounding solution. having the bassguitar in the sidechain of a kicks compressor (3-5db GR - or do you use more?) helps a bit. what would you say, was YOUR eye opener for kick & bass relationship? i guess tuning the kick better could help as well ... It's called "MIXING'.
It's not called "Separating".
When you bake a cake if you do it properly all the elements merge. If I look at a Monet painting I should not be looking at the individual points of pigment, I should be seing the work as a whole. to make a euphoneous whole. You don't (or shouldn't) taste the flour, the shortening, the vanilla, the chocolate, the nutmeg, etc, etc as separate elements. If I am listening to the kick drum as a distinct and separate entity in your mix you have failed. I shold be listening to the SONG.
EDIT: IMO recording the bass separate from the drum set is a mistake, as is taking the bass direct in most cases. If at all possible bass and drums should be recorded together, with the bass played through a good amp, preferably an Ampeg Portaflex amp. (there's a reason that Portaflexes are the most ubiquirtous amps in professional studios.) If the drummer and the bassist are at all good then leakage sould not be a problem - in fact it's "glue". That's the way you get a good groove going. It's not "masking" each other, it's WORKING TOGETHER.
With a GOOD bassist through a good amp you should need little if any compression on the bass. If you are attempting to use compression to "smooth out" uneven bass playing you need to hire a "hired gun" player to get it right because a compressor will never do that well.
Taking bass direct will only exaggerate deficiencies in playing.
If you look at a Monet painting you should see the work as a whole, as an overall work communicating the artist's intent. You should not be looking at the individual points of paint. (when I visited the Monet museum in Paris on tour break I became quite irritated with the idiotic tourists crowding up close to the painting because they were getting in the way of myself and anyone else being able to view the painting and appreciate the artist's intent.)
It's the exact same thing with audio. I want to listen to the SONG. If I'm hearing the kick, the bass, the keyboard, the guitar as distinct and separate entities you have failed as a mixer.
There is no place this is more important than in the low end. The kick and the bass should work together to create the foundation of the song. The groove. That's not to say that you shouldn't hear each part, but the parts should work and blend together to create the foundation of the mix.
It's called "mixing". There's a reason for that.
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Post by wiz on Jul 4, 2019 20:28:10 GMT -6
so that's the next step i wanna take in my mixing - up my game in the kick & bass department! mostly i record a live kickdrum and a DI bassguitar, almost never i mike a bassamp. comes mixing time i "theoretically" know it "all": not having the kick and the bass masking each other, keeping them out of each others way frequency wise. but it's not always that easy ... they often occupy the same frequency range. the bassguitar is all over the kick and carving out the kicks frequency in the bass isn't always the best sounding solution. having the bassguitar in the sidechain of a kicks compressor (3-5db GR - or do you use more?) helps a bit. what would you say, was YOUR eye opener for kick & bass relationship? i guess tuning the kick better could help as well ... It's called "MIXING'.
It's not called "Separating".
When you bake a cake if you do it properly all the elements merge. If I look at a Monet painting I should not be looking at the individual points of pigment, I should be seing the work as a whole. to make a euphoneous whole. You don't (or shouldn't) taste the flour, the shortening, the vanilla, the chocolate, the nutmeg, etc, etc as separate elements. If I am listening to the kick drum as a distinct and separate entity in your mix you have failed. I shold be listening to the SONG.
EDIT: IMO recording the bass separate from the drum set is a mistake, as is taking the bass direct in most cases. If at all possible bass and drums should be recorded together, with the bass played through a good amp, preferably an Ampeg Portaflex amp. (there's a reason that Portaflexes are the most ubiquirtous amps in professional studios.) If the drummer and the bassist are at all good then leakage sould not be a problem - in fact it's "glue". That's the way you get a good groove going.
With a GOOD bassist through a good amp you should need little if any compression on the bass. If you are attempting to use compression to "smooth out" uneven bass playing you need to hire a "hired gun" player to get it right because a compressor will never do that well.
Taking bass direct will only exaggerate deficiencies in playing.
If you look at a Monet painting you should see the work as a whole, as an overall work communicating the artist's intent. You should not be looking at the individual points of paint. (when I visited the Monet museum in Paris on tour break I became quite irritated with the idiotic tourists crowding up close to the painting because they were getting in the way of myself and anyone else being able to view the painting and appreciate the artist's intent.)
It's the exact same thing with audio. I want to listen to the SONG. If I'm hearing the kick, the bass, the keyboard, the guitar as distinct and separate entities you have failed as a mixer.
There is no place this is more important than in the low end. The kick and the bass should work together to create the foundation of the song. The groove. That's not to say that you shouldn't hear ech part, but thye parts should work and blend together to create the foundation ofg the mix.
It's called "mixing". There's a reason for that.
I actually just did the OPPOSITE of all of that advice....LOL I played bass against already tracked drums (which I played). I cut it direct through a V72. I then re-amped the drums and bass at the same time out through my mixing desk and used a LA2A on the bass. I carved out the EQ on the bass to fit my already nice sounding kick, deciding who would occupy the frequency ranges best to fit the song. As always, more than one way to skin a cat. I also would bet London to a brick that a super high percentage of all bass tracks have compression on them. Cheers Wiz
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Post by Blackdawg on Jul 4, 2019 20:36:15 GMT -6
Lol no compression on bass. Bass has been getting compressed for over 50 years.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 4, 2019 20:39:59 GMT -6
I recently picked up some of the izoptope plugins and I find that their exciters are incredible on basses and kicks. They can be split into multiple bands and there are several options for the type of harmonics used to excite the signal. Really killer stuff. Also in regards to tuning, my 70’s Ludwig holds its tuning for maybe a song. A drummer friend of mine recommended locking lugs. Haven’t tried them yet but they apparently work for holding the heads in place. I also find that multiple mics can help the situation. That way you can capture attack and sustain better. If that’s not an option, the izotope transient designers are also really killer for balancing kick and bass. They are also able to be split into bands. Also, some masking is ok. It’s natural for some masking to take place as long as you’re not completely canceling out part of the frequency spectrum. Multiple mics on a kit cause and exacerbate phase/polarity problems. I used to use piles of mics on a kit and I could never figurte out why, even after phase checking everything, the kit still sounded like crap. Then several years ago I encountered William Wittman and his relatively minimalist method of micing the kit (which I have elaborated elsewhere on the forum.)
On snare in particular I now use only ONE mic of excellent quality, micing the drum from the SIDE, a few inches from the vent and two or three inches from the shell. You get excellent control of balance between top and bottom head by adjusting placement of the single mic, and since the mic is in polarity with the other drum mics you don't get phase problems. With a GOOD mic that has superior off axis response you don't need a hat mic, either.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 4, 2019 20:44:57 GMT -6
Lol no compression on bass. Bass has been getting compressed for over 50 years. If you use a GOOD bass amp (Ampeg B-15N, B-18N) you don't NEED a compressor, or at least not much. The amp does it for you.
If you don't have access to a good bass amp, well, that's your problem.
Of course if your bassist has a poor, uneven touch that's a different matter, but no compressor is really going to get a guy like that to sound right.
Usually at my place we just rerecord the part.
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Post by christopher on Jul 4, 2019 21:20:54 GMT -6
Recording bass amp and drums live you get to do something that’s really cool: when you boost the lows on- say the snare, you are also boosting a slight amount of bass amp whether you know it or not. Same for all the drum mics. And what the bass sounds like in those mics is warm and full, not at all overly dynamic but does lack some definition. Those other mics the bass is pretty consistent in level, and rolled off in tone. Similar to a compressed bass with EQ. And then you pan drum mics and the bass gets a little stereo too from that. So really live anything (that isn’t gated) is sort of like blending many multi-channels with the original. In my mind I think of it as same sort of thing you get from parallel compression/EQ, but don’t need any processing, it just happens. Using that experience, I can then decide whether I want less of that action, or more of it, using mic placement and technique.
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